How common are aircraft partnerships compared to outright ownerships?

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Gig 601XL Builder wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote:

Ok. sorry but the vast majority of flying Skyhawks are not the newer SPs
but
the older "plain old Skyhawks."

Well, Gig, I have to thank you. Your statement above was screaming for a
reference to back it up but instead of putting the burden on you, I
decided
to try to prove or disprove it myself.
So, about 91% of all registered C172s are pre-1996. I suppose that
qualifies as a vast majority.



Good researching Peter. 10:1 Sounds about right.

However, if you remind me of your flight instruction qualifications and how
many students you have successfully transitioned from a Warrier to a C172SP

I've successfully transitioned students into aircraft ranging from
gliders and old-fashioned ragwings to complex singles like the Mooney
and Bonanza, and even the odd twin. From where I'm sitting, he's right
and you're wrong. An hour is plenty of time to deal with issues like
fuel injection vs carb heat. It's nowhere near enough to get full
utility from a glass panel, but it's more than enough time to get the
same utility a pilot would get from a conventional panel. Someone who
is current and proficient in a Warrior should not need more than an
hour max to transition into a Skyhawk regardless of engine and
avionics.

Also, I think it's ridiculous to require recency of experience in make
and model - recency of experience makes sense for a class of airplane,
and a Warrior and Skyhawk are the same class.

Michael

Michael wrote:

Someone who
is current and proficient in a Warrior should not need more than an
hour max to transition into a Skyhawk regardless of engine and
avionics.

Let me understand you. One hour is all you need to transition a pilot
unfamiliar with an IFR certified GPS and dual-axis autopilot into an
aircraft equipped as such? Really?

If you could, what is your syllabus?

--
Peter
























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In article .com,
Michael wrote:

Also, I think it's ridiculous to require recency of experience in make
and model - recency of experience makes sense for a class of airplane,
and a Warrior and Skyhawk are the same class.

I think the insurances companies have the rules on recency of
experience set to tightly, but I think there is some merit on having
recency of experience requirements, even in the same class of
aircraft.

I fly out of West Valley Flying Club (http://www.wvfc.org), which
is one of the biggest (the biggest?) flying clubs. The requirement
for recency of experience is 1hr in make/model in the last 90 days
for sub-200hp fixed gear planes. A more powerful plane counts for
a less powerful one, so an Archer counts for a Warrior, and a 172
counts for a 152. Complete matrix available he
http://www.wvfc.org/current.html

I haven't flown a 172 since 1990, so even though the transition
shouldn't take more then an hour or so, I'm by no means familiar
with the specific characteristics of a 172. Could I just hop in
a 172 and fly safely? Probably, but I'd also probably do some
minor things incorrectly based on flying Archers/Warriors for years.

For sub-200hp fixed gear planes, six months or so is probably safe,
but after that, the minor differences can start to bite.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

Let me understand you. One hour is all you need to
transition a pilot
unfamiliar with an IFR certified GPS and dual-axis
autopilot into an
aircraft equipped as such? Really?

Really. After all, said pilot has clearly been flying without these
things and doesn't need them. Thus I see no reason to cover the full
functionality of the devices unless he wants me to. He can read the
manual and figure it out himself, we can talk about it on the ground if
he wants to, and if he wants we can work on them - but knowing how to
use them is not a requirement for a checkout.

Would you require a VFR-only pilot to learn how to shoot an ADF
approach just because the plane he is renting is equipped to do so? Or
would showing him how to tune in a station be enough? How is it
different if he's IFR rated? Suppose he's IFR rated but not current?
Suppose he's only out of currency by only 3 months, and could shoot 6
aproaches and a hold with a safety pilot and suddenly he's legal?

Would you require training in LOP operations just because the plane was
equipped with engine analyzer and GAMI's, or would the "Lean to initial
roughness, then enrich to smoothness" be OK with you because it still
works?

Would you require training in aerobatics just because the aircraft was
capable of them? That would make a hell of a transition from a C-150
to a C-150 Aerobat.

There is a huge difference between being able to fly to the capability
of the airplane and being able to fly the plane reasonably safely.
Being able to fly to the capability of the airplane is something we
should all aspire to - but it's not realistic to require that for a
rental or club checkout.

If you could, what is your syllabus?

GPS syllabus - how to put it into direct-to mode and change range on
the map (if there is one). Takes 5 minutes max.

Autopilot syllabus - how to engage heading hold and altitude, how to
disengage, where the circuit breaker is to disable it. Takes 5 minutes
max.

Sure, there's a lot more functionality there - but the pilot doesn't
need it, so no point requiring him to learn it.

Michael

"John Clear" wrote in message
...

SNIP

I fly out of West Valley Flying Club (http://www.wvfc.org), which
is one of the biggest (the biggest?) flying clubs. The requirement
for recency of experience is 1hr in make/model in the last 90 days
for sub-200hp fixed gear planes. A more powerful plane counts for
a less powerful one, so an Archer counts for a Warrior, and a 172
counts for a 152. Complete matrix available he
http://www.wvfc.org/current.html

SNIP

John,

That's a terriffic website and WVFC looks like a really well-run
organization.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

Michael wrote:

There is a huge difference between being able to fly to the capability
of the airplane and being able to fly the plane reasonably safely.
Being able to fly to the capability of the airplane is something we
should all aspire to - but it's not realistic to require that for a
rental or club checkout.

Apparently I have different expectations from a checkout than what is
performed during a "typical" checkout.

--
Peter
























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John Clear wrote:

In article .com,
Michael wrote:

Also, I think it's ridiculous to require recency of experience in make
and model - recency of experience makes sense for a class of airplane,
and a Warrior and Skyhawk are the same class.


I think the insurances companies have the rules on recency of
experience set to tightly, but I think there is some merit on having
recency of experience requirements, even in the same class of
aircraft.

I fly out of West Valley Flying Club (http://www.wvfc.org), which
is one of the biggest (the biggest?) flying clubs. The requirement
for recency of experience is 1hr in make/model in the last 90 days
for sub-200hp fixed gear planes. A more powerful plane counts for
a less powerful one, so an Archer counts for a Warrior, and a 172
counts for a 152. Complete matrix available he
http://www.wvfc.org/current.html

I haven't flown a 172 since 1990, so even though the transition
shouldn't take more then an hour or so, I'm by no means familiar
with the specific characteristics of a 172. Could I just hop in
a 172 and fly safely? Probably, but I'd also probably do some
minor things incorrectly based on flying Archers/Warriors for years.

For sub-200hp fixed gear planes, six months or so is probably safe,
but after that, the minor differences can start to bite.

John

wow, THAT's a fleet! How many members?

Montblack wrote:

("xyzzy" wrote)

http://www.wingsofcarolina.org

(rates haven't been updated, they went up in June, Warrior is now $80,
Mooney is now $120, not sure what the 152's are now).



(From your link)
"To join the Club, a $100 application fee and a $300 refundable security
deposit are required, along with the first month dues of $45. (Security
deposits vary with aircraft type, see rates table for exact amount.)
Aircraft charges, priced only to recover the Club's costs, are based on
the time the engine is running and include fuel and oil. Instructors are
paid separately."

Looks like you only pay 100 dollars to join - then pay $45 per month.
Cessna 152 is $58 wet. Insurance is included.

Flying deposits of $300, $600, $1,200 look to cover (approx) 5, 7.5, or
10 hours depending on plane type.

The deposits are actually equity shares in the club. You can't apply
them to flying time. They are refundable upon resignation.

I see nice pads in the pics of the planes. Hangars? Are they in the works?

In 2001 the club moved from IGX to TTA. The pics on the pads were taken
at IGX, before the move. At TTA we have "our own" ramp (it's actually a
public ramp but 99% of the time only we use it) with a clubhouse that
includes a maintanence hangar, flight planning room, classroom, offices,
etc. If you look at the aerial picture of TTA at the bottom of the home
page, the ramp and building closest to the photographer (at the arrival
end of rwy 3) are ours.

In article , xyzzy wrote:
John Clear wrote:
I fly out of West Valley Flying Club (http://www.wvfc.org), which

wow, THAT's a fleet! How many members?


Somewhere around 1000 members, but scheduling is rarely a problem.
I almost always can get my favorite Archer (35 out of my last 50
flights, and some of those don't count since they were in my other
favorite Archer before it moved over to HWD).

Since the club is so huge, there is a bit more regulations and
paperwork, but most of that is reasonable considering they are
letting you use a plane owned by someone else. The club doesn't
own any aircraft, but does do the maintenance on them, so they are
very well maintained.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/