No SID in clearance, fly it anyway?

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 22:48:42 -0500, "Robert Henry"
wrote:


ATC is responsible for providing separation between IFR aircraft. IFR
refers to the RULES under which the aircraft are flying and NOT to the
weather conditions.

Yes, but see and avoid applies to IFR also. I can now see that there is more
to it than that.

What protection would be provided?

Separation from other IFR traffic.

Sure, as long as the arrival remains IFR. If the arriving aircraft is
cleared for the visual, the departing aircraft is probably not going to be
released, and if the departing aircraft is released, the arriving aircraft
is probably going to be given delaying / spacing vectors. If the arriving
aircraft cancels IFR and proceeds direct to the field...that's different.
Now, if the tower was expecting an easterly departure, and the aircraft
proceeds west according to the ODP, then what?


Radar services are not being provided to
either aircraft along the ODP since both are inside the ring and below
MVA.

I don't know what you mean by "the ring". But since when are radar
services required for IFR traffic separation? Radar allows for less
separation, but non-radar IFR regulations have been around for a long
time.

Now if it were IMC, that would be a different case

Why and how?

because... there are no approaches that traverse this ODP, so in IMC there
would be no truly VFR aircraft (we hope )
or IFR aircraft on visual approaches in that space; it's pretty easy to
protect.

(Unless *both* aircraft report traffic in sight, and consent to "maintain
visual separation")

But you are implying that they are NOT protecting this airspace unless the
pilot specifically requests an ODP (something he is NOT required to do)
when you talk about the possibility of "head to head" encounters.

No, the tower is saying, we don't know what you are going to do, so it'd be
nice if you would tell us. Are you saying that the tower is responsible for
protecting the ODP? I don't believe that's the case, else they wouldn't
have to request a release.

That said, I totally agree that since there is clearly ambiguity (tower
thought: let's see, the aircraft has an easterly flight plan, but the ODP is
westerly...I wonder which way he is going to turn after departure since he
might be able to outfly the terrain over there visually?), I think the tower
would be well advised to clarify. Instead, they have clearly stated that the
pilot can do what he wants (just like you say - pilot prerogative), and
they'll figure it out/react/respond accordingly.

So as Sydney notes, it would be best to state intentions, but that would not
have made any difference if I had hit the ground less than 3 minutes after
departure. That's what I would like to prevent from happening to someone
else. Let's get back to that.

Bob

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:21:53 -0500, "Robert Henry"
wrote:

If the arriving
aircraft cancels IFR and proceeds direct to the field...that's different.

Yes it is, but that wasn't the situation you initially described. In my
experience, it is unusual for an aircraft to cancel IFR when arriving at a
towered field.

Does that happen frequently at your field?

Now, if the tower was expecting an easterly departure, and the aircraft
proceeds west according to the ODP, then what?

If the a/c is departing IFR, with no particular alternate departure
instructions, the tower should expect that the aircraft will fly the ODP.
Again, if the tower is NOT expecting the IFR departure to fly the ODP, then
they need proper training.

In any event, I would expect that the tower would clear arriving VFR
aircraft to enter the pattern in such a way as to not conflict with
departing traffic.

At towered airports where I have operated, in a situation similar to what
you are now describing, the tower will usually issue advisories to both
aircraft. It sure has not been unusual for me to depart an airport in VMC
and have traffic arriving from many directions.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Robert Henry wrote:

Sure, as long as the arrival remains IFR. If the arriving aircraft is
cleared for the visual, the departing aircraft is probably not going to be
released,

Probably? I guarantee it, unless someone provides visual separation.


If the arriving
aircraft cancels IFR and proceeds direct to the field...that's different.
Now, if the tower was expecting an easterly departure, and the aircraft
proceeds west according to the ODP, then what?

Well, since he cancelled IFR it doesn't matter.


No, the tower is saying, we don't know what you are going to do, so it'd be
nice if you would tell us. Are you saying that the tower is responsible for
protecting the ODP? I don't believe that's the case, else they wouldn't
have to request a release.

The fact that a tower has to request a release has nothing to do with
the ODP. That is simply what the tower and their approach control have
worked out. I worked in the flatlands of North Dakota for a while, we
had to get a release for every IFR departure.

"Newps" wrote in message
news:thfrb.147219$HS4.1197781@attbi_s01...


Robert Henry wrote:

Sure, as long as the arrival remains IFR. If the arriving aircraft is
cleared for the visual, the departing aircraft is probably not going to
be
released,

Probably? I guarantee it, unless someone provides visual separation.

So it, possible, but most unlikely? Isn't that probably not.

If the arriving
aircraft cancels IFR and proceeds direct to the field...that's
different.
Now, if the tower was expecting an easterly departure, and the aircraft
proceeds west according to the ODP, then what?

Well, since he cancelled IFR it doesn't matter.

Well, it would be nice if it did, too. It remains my hope that a midair in
Class D airspace because the inbound aircraft was instructed (verbally or
through omission of other instructions) to continue, and the outbound
aircraft was proceeding on the inverse (ODP) heading is not going to be a
career enhancing incident for the tower. In other words, "How did you not
know that the departing aircarft was flying the ODP."



No, the tower is saying, we don't know what you are going to do, so it'd
be
nice if you would tell us. Are you saying that the tower is responsible
for
protecting the ODP? I don't believe that's the case, else they wouldn't
have to request a release.

The fact that a tower has to request a release has nothing to do with
the ODP. That is simply what the tower and their approach control have
worked out. I worked in the flatlands of North Dakota for a while, we
had to get a release for every IFR departure.

Is it safe to conclude that if an aircraft departs IFR without a release
that the ODP may not be protected at that time? I am certain there is a
relationship, even if there are 100+ better reasons that most SOPs/LOAs
require a coordinated release before departure.

Robert Henry wrote:

Well, since he cancelled IFR it doesn't matter.


Well, it would be nice if it did, too. It remains my hope that a midair in
Class D airspace because the inbound aircraft was instructed (verbally or
through omission of other instructions) to continue, and the outbound
aircraft was proceeding on the inverse (ODP) heading is not going to be a
career enhancing incident for the tower. In other words, "How did you not
know that the departing aircarft was flying the ODP."

But he cancelled, so the tower controller is under no obligation to do
anything. When I worked at the VFR tower we would simply say "traffic
is one Cessna inbound from the NE, freq change approved."


Is it safe to conclude that if an aircraft departs IFR without a release
that the ODP may not be protected at that time?

Sure, it may also be littered with VFR aircraft going the same direction.


I am certain there is a
relationship, even if there are 100+ better reasons that most SOPs/LOAs
require a coordinated release before departure.

All towers have an LOA with their approach control on how they will
handle IFR traffic. Some class D's will have automatic releases on a
few headings or within a pie. The pie will be some wedge fanning out
from the departure end encompassing about 60 degrees. Most class D's
will have to call for each release. Likewise the approach control will
be required to inform the tower of each inbound and turn over comm by a
certain point. Now if all IFR aircraft will be flying a certain same
exact procedure then what you have is essentially nonradar airspace.
When that happens there will only be one aircraft in the area at a time,
whether that is a departure or an arrival.