Took the Kids Up (First Time)

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:2AyKe.238299$x96.106126@attbi_s72...

You need a Pathfinder, Trent. No W&B issues, ever, and a 1460 pound
useful
load.

I'm a renter right now. Maybe someday. Can anyone loan me some money?

Since April, as a family, we have flown to Florida, Seattle (commercial),
Washington, D.C., Mackinac Island, Door County, WI, Oshkosh, and the
Ozarks,
with many other shorter trips in between.

The sad
thing is, people choose not to fly GA for many bogus reasons, ranging from
cost to "it's too hard." NONE of these reasons are valid, but we in the
GA
world have done a terrible job of spreading the word to the non-flying
public.

I have to disagree there. Those reasons are valid, if only for the family
that feels they are. If I had a full-grown family of four, but couldn't
afford a Pathfinder (or similiar heavy lifter), how could I fly my family on
vacation? If renting a capable plane cost 2 or 3 times as much as a
commercial ticket, how could I justify it? Then there is the cost of time
and money of getting checked out, getting current in said aircraft on top of
all that. All that is a whole lot harder and more expensive than buying a
commercial ticket or just driving.

Enjoy your boat, but don't label GA as being "family unfriendly" simply
because you haven't been able to make it work. Flying is one of the
greatest (and, for a change, useful) family activities there is.

I labeled it family unfriendly because it is unaccessible to most families
because of cost alone. You have to admit that buying an $80,000 airplane is
a HUGE investment; that's roughly what it would cost to own a true
four-place airplane. That's more than some families' houses! And the fact
that your kids (if you have two) can't bring their friends along makes it
even worse. A lot of my friends have 3 or more kids. What are they going to
do?

See where I am going with this? I love aviation and I love to fly. I just
realize that it has its limitations when it comes to family recreation
and/or transportation. It's working for your family and that's great, but
you were wondering why GA isn't more prevelant with families and I'm
offering my point of view.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

I labeled it family unfriendly because it is unaccessible to most families
because of cost alone. You have to admit that buying an $80,000 airplane
is
a HUGE investment; that's roughly what it would cost to own a true
four-place airplane. That's more than some families' houses!

True. However, it's also far less than many of my neighbors have spent on
boating and golf -- two entirely useless (albeit fun) activities -- AND an
airplane is an APPRECIATING asset.

GA costs a fair piece of change for sure -- but look at the rewards! If we
leave at sunrise, we can be in Florida by lunchtime! Or, if we prefer, we
can be at the Smithsonian by late in the afternoon!

Going the other direction, we can be at Mt. Rushmore by supper, or the Lake
Superior shoreline for lunch. Rather head south? We can be in Texas for
an early supper.

See what I mean? GA is THE way to travel the country, so long as you don't
have more than two kids. (And I met two families at the Cherokee Fly-In
last weekend with four kids apiece -- and their Cherokee Sixes did the job
for them quite nicely.)

GA is NOT overly expensive, when compared to the heavy-duty golf aficionado,
or the in-water boater -- and there are literally MILLIONS of them. Sadly,
most of them believe that GA is impossible for them, simply through
ignorance of the situation.

We have GOT to get the message across to that group, somehow.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

GA is NOT overly expensive, when compared to the heavy-duty golf aficionado,
or the in-water boater -- and there are literally MILLIONS of them. Sadly,
most of them believe that GA is impossible for them, simply through
ignorance of the situation.

I personally know of none who feel this way. The ones I know simply have no
interest in aviation (outside the cost of an airline ticket).

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

George Patterson wrote:
Jay Honeck wrote:


GA is NOT overly expensive, when compared to the heavy-duty golf
aficionado, or the in-water boater -- and there are literally MILLIONS
of them.

Not sure what "in-water boater" means but assuming it means the average
boat owner you have got to be kidding. Owning a boat costs a small
fraction of what operating a 182 does. A really nice brand new boat
runs less than $30K. A good used boat is around $10K-15K. Insurance is
hardly anything. Maintenence is zip compared to a plane. No hangar or
its associated insurance. For what I have invested in flying I could
buy each of the four members of my family a brand new boat and trailer
and all the goodies somebody needs for a day of skiing/tubing/fishing.
For the same money I have a near 37 year old plane that I just sold to
buy a 40 year old plane, which costs a little more than 50% more than my
182. The same goes for golf, only more so.

Not sure what "in-water boater" means but assuming it means the average
boat owner you have got to be kidding. Owning a boat costs a small
fraction of what operating a 182 does.

An "in-water boater" is a Great Lakes or open ocean boater. These are the
"big guys" -- the kind that are too big to be transported on a trailer.
Fly around the Great Lakes, and you will see thousands of them.

Each of these guys spends an unbelievable amount of money so that they can
spend 14 weeks each year (on the Great Lakes; more on the ocean, if down
South) getting drunk on what amounts to a small, floating hotel room.

We've got friends who own a 40+ foot yacht on Lake Michigan. It cost over
$300K to acquire, and an amazing amount of money to maintain. (Each year
they have to pay to have it removed with a crane, and then shrink wrapped --
I'm not kidding -- for winter storage.) Worse, it is a depreciating asset,
meaning that it is worth less and less every year. It has two 350-cubic
inch Chevy engines, gets 6 gallons to the mile, and they never, ever leave
the dock.

Yet, they look at Mary and me flying all over the country as an unaffordable
extravagance, even though they know that what we spend is a tiny fraction of
what they spend on boating. And the guy took flight lessons at one time.

The same goes for golf, only more so.

Clearly you have not rubbed elbows with really serious golfers. I know guys
who spend hundreds per WEEK playing golf, all over the country. Hell, a
single Big Bertha driver can cost $400 bucks -- and tee times at the best
courses run into many hundreds of dollars for a single round of golf.

And these guys never play a single round.

It ALMOST makes a Garmin GNS 530 look like a justifiable expense!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Hmmm,
Jay as an ex very avid golfer I would say you have not played alot of golf.
I played twice a week for years,...and greens fees vary greatly according to
what part of the country you are in. Amazingly it costs alot more to play
golf in the south than it does out west! Go figure, since they spend tons of
money watering a course in Palm Springs! Playing Indian Wells was very
cheap, on the other hand Ameilia Island , FL you would almost have to
mortgage the house! HAHA Ok not really but it was over 100 bucks.
Smart golfers have custom clubs built for them, my last set which still
sits in my basement collecting dust now, was built for me in Myrtle Beach ,
SC . Built just for me, to my swing , height and with the proper weights for
me. It was about closing time at the golf shop and the fellow really wanted
to make a sale, and I got my new clubs for $189.00. Ok and I really splurged
and spent another 30 on a new putter!
And like everything else in this world you can spend alot or you can
spend alittle. You can play a 20-30 buck green fee course or a 60-80 one.
Most duffers don't play the big buck ones ALL the time.
And thankfully my clubs did not require annual inspections, oil changes,
wiring harness, tires and brakes, and insurance. No finance charges, no
hangar fees, no tie downs. No new GPS to find my way on the course No old
avionics to replace. Sure you could spend 3,000 on a set of clubs, but you
don't have to! And the best set of clubs are ones made for you.
And golf my friend is the most frustrating fun you can have! But it's
just like anything else, it's only as cheap as you are smart. I would bet
alot of you guys spend more in maintinance in a year than I did playing golf
twice a week.
Aviation can be alot cheaper as well. But unless you build a 3000 buck
plane yourself , have your own private airfield on a farm, do your own
maint. You will spend more money. And hey if you get good at golf you never
have to buy the beer!!!!!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:vQUKe.19096$084.3545@attbi_s22...
Not sure what "in-water boater" means but assuming it means the average
boat owner you have got to be kidding. Owning a boat costs a small
fraction of what operating a 182 does.

An "in-water boater" is a Great Lakes or open ocean boater. These are
the "big guys" -- the kind that are too big to be transported on a
trailer. Fly around the Great Lakes, and you will see thousands of them.

Each of these guys spends an unbelievable amount of money so that they can
spend 14 weeks each year (on the Great Lakes; more on the ocean, if down
South) getting drunk on what amounts to a small, floating hotel room.

We've got friends who own a 40+ foot yacht on Lake Michigan. It cost over
$300K to acquire, and an amazing amount of money to maintain. (Each year
they have to pay to have it removed with a crane, and then shrink
wrapped -- I'm not kidding -- for winter storage.) Worse, it is a
depreciating asset, meaning that it is worth less and less every year. It
has two 350-cubic inch Chevy engines, gets 6 gallons to the mile, and they
never, ever leave the dock.

Yet, they look at Mary and me flying all over the country as an
unaffordable extravagance, even though they know that what we spend is a
tiny fraction of what they spend on boating. And the guy took flight
lessons at one time.

The same goes for golf, only more so.

Clearly you have not rubbed elbows with really serious golfers. I know
guys who spend hundreds per WEEK playing golf, all over the country.
Hell, a single Big Bertha driver can cost $400 bucks -- and tee times at
the best courses run into many hundreds of dollars for a single round of
golf.

And these guys never play a single round.

It ALMOST makes a Garmin GNS 530 look like a justifiable expense!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay as an ex very avid golfer I would say you have not played alot of
golf.

Well, I used to belong to a club in Kenosha, WI. Played 2 or 3 times per
week for a few years.

And I *still* sucked, so I started flying...

:-)

And golf my friend is the most frustrating fun you can have! But it's
just like anything else, it's only as cheap as you are smart. I would bet
alot of you guys spend more in maintinance in a year than I did playing
golf twice a week.

True enough, but I'm not talking about the guys like me (and, apparently,
you) who played the local courses. I'm talking the guys who throw their
clubs on a commercial flight to go play Pebble Beach -- and there are a
surprising number of them out there. I used to work with two of them, yet
they thought that owning a plane was outrageously extravagant.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

We've got friends who own a 40+ foot yacht on Lake Michigan. It cost over
$300K to acquire, and an amazing amount of money to maintain. (Each year
they have to pay to have it removed with a crane, and then shrink wrapped --
I'm not kidding -- for winter storage.) Worse, it is a depreciating asset,
meaning that it is worth less and less every year. It has two 350-cubic
inch Chevy engines, gets 6 gallons to the mile, and they never, ever leave
the dock.

I have a friend that has a 42 footer. He keeps it at Liberty Park marina, across
from Manhattan. He lives on it during the summer. Cost him $45,000 (used, like
most of our aircraft). He occasionally cruises as far as Albany for a vacation,
but its main use is a family summer home. His gas costs about what ours costs
us. His expenses are trivial compared to a hangar, maintenance, and inspection
fees for something like a Warrior. Sure, that family could probably afford to
fly. If he sold the boat. For the dubious privelege of shoehorning his family
into an aluminum sardine can, he could wear uncomfortable hearing protection for
hours while risking losing his job due to weather delays and spending three
times what airline tickets would cost to get him to the same place. That's
always assuming his wife wouldn't divorce him first.

In addition to knowing Tom, I do a fair amount of work for the Navasink Marina.
The social life at an airport can't compare to what the boat owners there enjoy.
For much less than the cost of keeping a typical 4-seat aircraft. Your friends
may not ever leave the dock, but all of the Navasink tenants do fairly
frequently. The Sea Bright drawbridge is up about 20% of the time I need to
cross it during summer, and it only opens for something about 2 stories tall.

Sure, most of them go into shrink wrap in December and don't come out until
early April, but when I was faced with digging the Maule out of the snow,
preheating for half an hour, and then freezing my cojones off to "warm up the
oil," I frequently wished we could do the same thing with our aircraft.

Yet, they look at Mary and me flying all over the country as an unaffordable
extravagance, even though they know that what we spend is a tiny fraction of
what they spend on boating.

You spend a tremendous sum of money to do something they would pay to avoid
doing (and do).

And these guys never play a single round.

*That's* your definition of a "serious golfer?" You are *really* divorced from
reality.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Jay Honeck wrote:


We've got friends who own a 40+ foot yacht on Lake Michigan. It cost
over $300K to acquire, and an amazing amount of money to maintain.
(Each year they have to pay to have it removed with a crane, and then
shrink wrapped -- I'm not kidding -- for winter storage.) Worse, it
is a depreciating asset, meaning that it is worth less and less every
year. It has two 350-cubic inch Chevy engines, gets 6 gallons to the
mile, and they never, ever leave the dock.

But it also qualifies as a house and therefore the monthly payment is a
mortgage and can be written off. I do the same thing with my fifth wheel.

And these guys never play a single round.

*That's* your definition of a "serious golfer?" You are *really* divorced
from reality.

Hmm. That came out wrong.

It should have read "And these guys never play JUST a single round."
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"