Descent below MDA -- what would you do?

You failed to tell us the method for closing your IFR flight plan once on the
ground. Do they give you a phone number? Do you have cell phone service on
the approach?

First, a bit of history: 91.175's predecessor section (91.116) permitted,
until 1981 as I recall, descent based on landmarks familiar to the pilot. It
was fraught with hazards although it had its origins from the "DC-3" days.
Some of the more jaded folks called it the "Farmer Jone's Barn Sighting Rule."

It's important to know that history, because the revocation of that rule is a
very handy cite for a sharp FAA attorney to rebutt a pilot claim of defense
that he saw Jone's barn and knows the area well, so he knows that leads to the
runway...and so forth.

Thus, what others advise about remaining at MDA and going to the airport then
circling to land is not only good safety advice, it is very good legal advice.

The reason I ask about the phone is because you could have opted to cancel IFR
and then do whatever you wanted to do to get in and land.

Roy Smith wrote:

What would you do in this situation? You're on the GPS-22 into Ellenville,
NY (http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0508/09390G22.PDF), planning to land
straight-in. Note the high MDA (1800 AGL). There's no weather reporting
at your destination, but several nearby airports are saying anywhere from
2-1/2 to 4 mile visibility. For the sake of argument, assume it's 2-1/2
miles where you are. There's scattered CU at about 4000, but you're below
that already. It's daytime, winds are light out of the south.

You're 2 miles from YARNN at the MDA and have good ground contact ahead and
to both sides. You can also see the ridgeline east of the final approach
course which is represented by the 1850 elevation marker. What you don't
see is the runway, or any of the other things called out in 91.175(c)(3).
You know from experience that this is a difficult airport to spot even in
good VFR because it blends in with the surrounding terrain.

You were cleared for the approach at Kingston VOR, and are long out of
radar and radio contact with ATC.

If you stay at the MDA (as 91.175(c) requires), it's unlikely you will ever
see the runway, as it will quickly disappear under the nose of the
airplane. Your GPS is providing you VNAV guidance, and you are already
above the synthetic glide slope. You're well above the minimums for a
contact approach, but since you're out of radio contact, you can't ask for
one; your current clearance is for the GPS-22. Continuing your descent
below the MDA, but staying above the VNAV glideslope it technically not
legal, but seems like a "no harm, no foul" kind of violation.

What would you do?

wrote in message ...
The reason I ask about the phone is because you could have opted to cancel
IFR
and then do whatever you wanted to do to get in and land.

In the absence of radio or phone contact, can you unilaterally cancel IFR
and inform ATC after you land?

--Gary

Gary Drescher wrote:

wrote in message ...
The reason I ask about the phone is because you could have opted to cancel
IFR
and then do whatever you wanted to do to get in and land.

In the absence of radio or phone contact, can you unilaterally cancel IFR
and inform ATC after you land?

--Gary

For non-commercial operations I don't see why not. But, it's not clean and
someone may say it was wrong to hold the airspace when you had "cancelled" as a
state of mind. Or, some might argue that a cancellation does not take effect
until ATC acknowledges its receipt.

Murky waters but I suspect the not-for-hire pilot would prevail in any
enforcement proceeding. It's more of an issue of ATC policy as opposed to
regulations, per se.

wrote in message ...
Gary Drescher wrote:

wrote in message
...
The reason I ask about the phone is because you could have opted to
cancel
IFR
and then do whatever you wanted to do to get in and land.

In the absence of radio or phone contact, can you unilaterally cancel IFR
and inform ATC after you land?

--Gary

For non-commercial operations I don't see why not. But, it's not clean
and
someone may say it was wrong to hold the airspace when you had "cancelled"
as a
state of mind.

But if the alternative were to not cancel at all, then the airspace would be
just as held-up.

Or, some might argue that a cancellation does not take effect
until ATC acknowledges its receipt.

Yup, that's what I'm unsure about. Also, if you did cancel unilaterally,
would you then squawk 1200 in case ATC still had radar contact?

--Gary

Gary Drescher wrote:

wrote in message ...

The reason I ask about the phone is because you could have opted to cancel
IFR
and then do whatever you wanted to do to get in and land.


In the absence of radio or phone contact, can you unilaterally cancel IFR
and inform ATC after you land?

How do you "unilaterally" cancel IFR?

Matt

Gary Drescher wrote:
wrote in message ...

The reason I ask about the phone is because you could have opted to cancel
IFR
and then do whatever you wanted to do to get in and land.


In the absence of radio or phone contact, can you unilaterally cancel IFR
and inform ATC after you land?

No.

"Newps" wrote in message
...

In the absence of radio or phone contact, can you unilaterally cancel IFR
and inform ATC after you land?


No.


Why not?

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...

In the absence of radio or phone contact, can you unilaterally cancel IFR
and inform ATC after you land?


I don't know of anything that prohibits it.

In article , wrote:
You failed to tell us the method for closing your IFR flight plan once on the
ground. Do they give you a phone number? Do you have cell phone service on
the approach?

Well, it was a training flight; the plan (negotiated with the controller
ahead of time) was to go missed and call them in the hold for further
clearance.

The reason I ask about the phone is because you could have opted to cancel IFR
and then do whatever you wanted to do to get in and land.

Let's assume I still had radio contact with ATC 2 miles out and canceled at
that point. I could see how that would improve the legal picture, but it
certainly doesn't make it any safer. In fact, it could have made it worse.
As we came in, there was a guy on the ground holding short of the runway,
presumably waiting for his IFR release. Had I canceled, he might have been
released, not seen me swimming towards him in the haze, and gone out on the
runway right in front of me.

Had I canceled, he might have been
released, not seen me swimming towards him in the haze, and gone out on the
runway right in front of me.

.... and you would have seen him, and he would have seen you. This is
supposed to be VFR weather, right? Now, if you are flying visually with
no IFR clearance in IFR murk, that's another story, and the book should
be thrown.

Jose
--
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