Texas Taildraggers

K. Ari Krupnikov wrote:

Quite a bit more expensive, aren't they?

The cheapest flyable ones will definitely cost you more than a TT 150. The
fabric is not a problem if the paint was properly chosen and applied, but you
never know if that's the case.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

George Patterson writes:

K. Ari Krupnikov wrote:
Quite a bit more expensive, aren't they?

The cheapest flyable ones will definitely cost you more than a TT
150. The fabric is not a problem if the paint was properly chosen and
applied, but you never know if that's the case.

I'm buying my first airplane, so bear with me. Where I live, hangar
space is tough to come by (SF Bay area). I was under the impression
that it's not a good idea to keep a fabric airplane outside, so I
figured an all-metal TT would work better.

Also, I've never flown a Maule. Is anybody in NorCal willing to give
me a ride if I pay for gas?

Ari.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to

....fish and you'll be hearing about non-renewable resources for the
rest of your life.

--
Elections only count as free and trials as fair if you can lose money
betting on the outcome.

K. Ari Krupnikov wrote:

I was under the impression
that it's not a good idea to keep a fabric airplane outside, so I
figured an all-metal TT would work better.

Aircraft used to be covered with linen or cotton. That would be painted with
"dope" to keep air from passing through the weave. Both of these fabrics will
last a long time if hangared and rot if left outside. The rot time varies
depending on ambient weather conditions. I personally know of one J-3 Piper
still flying with an immaculate 30-year-old cotton skin. Been hangared since the
cover job.

Modern fabric-covered aircraft use synthetics such as Ceconite (AKA Polyfiber)
or Razorback. Ceconite will deteriorate when exposed to UV rays, so the aircraft
are carefully painted to prevent this. Two methods work. With both, you paint
the aircraft with primer coats of nitrate and butyrate dope. You can either
follow this with color coats of butyrate dope, or use color coats of
polyurethane. An aircraft covered in Ceconite and painted with either of these
methods can be kept outside. If the color coats are butyrate dope, the paint
must be "rejuvenated" about every 10 years, but this supposedly is true even if
the aircraft is hangared.

The problem with Maules is that, prior to 1996, the factory used enamel as the
color coat over a dope primer. Parts of the aircraft are fiberglass, some parts
are metal, and some are fabric. Dope doesn't last on bare metal and cracks on
fiberglass. Enamel shrinks and produces cracks and other problems in the fabric.
Most have been recovered, but who knows (I know of one '95 model that hasn't
been). The only real cure is to strip and recover and repaint the aircraft,
though some people have had success sanding the finish coat off and repainting.

Anyway. If you get a fabric aircraft that has a Ceconite or Polyfiber skin with
polyurethane applied over a dope base coat, you shouldn't have problems with
the fabric.

Corrosion is a different issue, but metal aircraft also have problems with this.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

George Patterson wrote:
: Anyway. If you get a fabric aircraft that has a Ceconite or Polyfiber skin with
: polyurethane applied over a dope base coat, you shouldn't have problems with
: the fabric.

: Corrosion is a different issue, but metal aircraft also have problems with this.

Just out of curiosity, if one were to learn the art of recovering so as to do
it oneself, what would a reasonable expense be to recover a bird like that? It seems
that so long as you know how to work on it, fabric planes aren't a big deal. In a lot
of ways, they're better than metal, since you can reasonable take the lid off and look
inside for corrosion.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:

Just out of curiosity, if one were to learn the art of recovering so as to do
it oneself, what would a reasonable expense be to recover a bird like that?

I spoke with a fellow who redid his Champ. IIRC, his cost was a bit over $2,000.
A lot depends on whether you use bolts of fabric and glue the stuff directly to
the frame or buy pre-sewn envelopes. Maule glues the fabric onto the frame.

Maule Flight will charge you $12,000 for a strip and recover.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

George Patterson wrote:

: I spoke with a fellow who redid his Champ. IIRC, his cost was a bit over $2,000.
: A lot depends on whether you use bolts of fabric and glue the stuff directly to
: the frame or buy pre-sewn envelopes. Maule glues the fabric onto the frame.

: Maule Flight will charge you $12,000 for a strip and recover.

... but then it must be painted as well, right Depending on how much of *that*
you do yourself, it could cost considerably more than the recovering.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:
George Patterson wrote:

: I spoke with a fellow who redid his Champ. IIRC, his cost was a bit over $2,000.
: A lot depends on whether you use bolts of fabric and glue the stuff directly to
: the frame or buy pre-sewn envelopes. Maule glues the fabric onto the frame.

: Maule Flight will charge you $12,000 for a strip and recover.

... but then it must be painted as well, right Depending on how much of *that*
you do yourself, it could cost considerably more than the recovering.

Both costs I quoted include painting. In the case of the Maule, $12,000 included
stripping paint from metal and fiberglass parts, removing the fabric, replacing
and silver-coating the fabric, priming the other parts of the aircraft, and
shooting with polyurethane color coats in a Maule standard paint scheme. That
cost was obtained from Rautgunde Maule at the AOPA Expo in Philadelphia some
years back, though. It might be higher today.

The guy that redid his Champ painted it with the not-so-accurate blue/yellow
military scheme. I don't remember what type of color coats he used. The gun he
was using appeared to me to be an older design (not HVLP).

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

George Patterson wrote:
Maule Flight will charge you $12,000 for a strip and recover.

Is that without paint?

By the way, I have a '96 "we have them on sale" MX7180a model (actually
built in '95). Not the good paint (still doing it against the hangar
wall). Not the really bad (auto)paint. IOTW, it chips off slowly.

I love the damn thing if only I had the good paint

Maule Driver wrote:

Is that without paint?

That's the whole job, paint and all. I got that price from Rautgunde several
years ago, though. It may have gone up. They also had a price of ~$15,000 for a
complete renovation.

By the way, I have a '96 "we have them on sale" MX7180a model (actually
built in '95). Not the good paint (still doing it against the hangar
wall). Not the really bad (auto)paint. IOTW, it chips off slowly.

If I'd bought the 180, I might still have mine. On the other hand, the loan
would've been larger and I might have lost it all.

I found out what the paint scheme was from a Randolph representative at Oshkosh
several years ago. He said that Maule used the Ceconite process, which specifies
a coat of nitrate dope, followed by silver butyrate. He said they would add a
coat of white butyrate over the silver as a primer and then spray the enamel
over that. He said it was possible to sand off the color coats (the enamel) down
to the white dope primer or even down to the silver. Don't go into the silver
coat at all -- if you see it, stop. Once you get the enamel off of the fabric,
spray with butyrate rejuvenator. After that, you can apply either polyurethane
or butyrate top coats.

If you're plane is like mine was when I sold it, you can see patches of the
white butyrate where the color coats have flaked off of the horizontal stabilizer.

We did not discuss redoing the paint on the metal or fiberglass sections (unless
maybe he was recommending that technique for those sections too). I know that
the upper surfaces of my wings were badly peeled by the time I sold it, so
something would have to be done there. Since chemical paint strippers will melt
Ceconite in a heartbeat, I would consider something like bead-blasting.

Randolph made the paints Maule was using back then.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

George Patterson wrote:

K. Ari Krupnikov wrote:


Quite a bit more expensive, aren't they?


The cheapest flyable ones will definitely cost you more than a TT 150.
The fabric is not a problem if the paint was properly chosen and
applied, but you never know if that's the case.

If the Aviation Consumer reviews of Maule planes are any indication,
odss are good that it wasn't painted properly. That has been
consistently cited as a problem with Maules.