Texas Taildraggers

George Patterson wrote:
: Anyway. If you get a fabric aircraft that has a Ceconite or Polyfiber skin with
: polyurethane applied over a dope base coat, you shouldn't have problems with
: the fabric.

: Corrosion is a different issue, but metal aircraft also have problems with this.

Just out of curiosity, if one were to learn the art of recovering so as to do
it oneself, what would a reasonable expense be to recover a bird like that? It seems
that so long as you know how to work on it, fabric planes aren't a big deal. In a lot
of ways, they're better than metal, since you can reasonable take the lid off and look
inside for corrosion.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:

Just out of curiosity, if one were to learn the art of recovering so as to do
it oneself, what would a reasonable expense be to recover a bird like that?

I spoke with a fellow who redid his Champ. IIRC, his cost was a bit over $2,000.
A lot depends on whether you use bolts of fabric and glue the stuff directly to
the frame or buy pre-sewn envelopes. Maule glues the fabric onto the frame.

Maule Flight will charge you $12,000 for a strip and recover.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

George Patterson wrote:

: I spoke with a fellow who redid his Champ. IIRC, his cost was a bit over $2,000.
: A lot depends on whether you use bolts of fabric and glue the stuff directly to
: the frame or buy pre-sewn envelopes. Maule glues the fabric onto the frame.

: Maule Flight will charge you $12,000 for a strip and recover.

... but then it must be painted as well, right Depending on how much of *that*
you do yourself, it could cost considerably more than the recovering.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:
George Patterson wrote:

: I spoke with a fellow who redid his Champ. IIRC, his cost was a bit over $2,000.
: A lot depends on whether you use bolts of fabric and glue the stuff directly to
: the frame or buy pre-sewn envelopes. Maule glues the fabric onto the frame.

: Maule Flight will charge you $12,000 for a strip and recover.

... but then it must be painted as well, right Depending on how much of *that*
you do yourself, it could cost considerably more than the recovering.

Both costs I quoted include painting. In the case of the Maule, $12,000 included
stripping paint from metal and fiberglass parts, removing the fabric, replacing
and silver-coating the fabric, priming the other parts of the aircraft, and
shooting with polyurethane color coats in a Maule standard paint scheme. That
cost was obtained from Rautgunde Maule at the AOPA Expo in Philadelphia some
years back, though. It might be higher today.

The guy that redid his Champ painted it with the not-so-accurate blue/yellow
military scheme. I don't remember what type of color coats he used. The gun he
was using appeared to me to be an older design (not HVLP).

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

George Patterson wrote:
Maule Flight will charge you $12,000 for a strip and recover.

Is that without paint?

By the way, I have a '96 "we have them on sale" MX7180a model (actually
built in '95). Not the good paint (still doing it against the hangar
wall). Not the really bad (auto)paint. IOTW, it chips off slowly.

I love the damn thing if only I had the good paint

Maule Driver wrote:

Is that without paint?

That's the whole job, paint and all. I got that price from Rautgunde several
years ago, though. It may have gone up. They also had a price of ~$15,000 for a
complete renovation.

By the way, I have a '96 "we have them on sale" MX7180a model (actually
built in '95). Not the good paint (still doing it against the hangar
wall). Not the really bad (auto)paint. IOTW, it chips off slowly.

If I'd bought the 180, I might still have mine. On the other hand, the loan
would've been larger and I might have lost it all.

I found out what the paint scheme was from a Randolph representative at Oshkosh
several years ago. He said that Maule used the Ceconite process, which specifies
a coat of nitrate dope, followed by silver butyrate. He said they would add a
coat of white butyrate over the silver as a primer and then spray the enamel
over that. He said it was possible to sand off the color coats (the enamel) down
to the white dope primer or even down to the silver. Don't go into the silver
coat at all -- if you see it, stop. Once you get the enamel off of the fabric,
spray with butyrate rejuvenator. After that, you can apply either polyurethane
or butyrate top coats.

If you're plane is like mine was when I sold it, you can see patches of the
white butyrate where the color coats have flaked off of the horizontal stabilizer.

We did not discuss redoing the paint on the metal or fiberglass sections (unless
maybe he was recommending that technique for those sections too). I know that
the upper surfaces of my wings were badly peeled by the time I sold it, so
something would have to be done there. Since chemical paint strippers will melt
Ceconite in a heartbeat, I would consider something like bead-blasting.

Randolph made the paints Maule was using back then.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

That's what I seem to have. I bought some Randolph paint to touch-up
but never did. I have chipping on the stab as you described. Wings are
fine except for fairings. In fact, every surface facing the prop blast
as been chipped to primer due to flying in the rain. Oh well.

I would love to get it redone. With 900 to go to TBO, I'll probably fly
it out while doing some homebuilding. Except for the chipping paint,
it's been a (cheap) joy. Simplicity is good.

BTW, I didn't buy new - 3rd owner at 35 hours.

Thanks!

George Patterson wrote:
I found out what the paint scheme was from a Randolph representative at
Oshkosh several years ago. He said that Maule used the Ceconite process,
which specifies a coat of nitrate dope, followed by silver butyrate. He
said they would add a coat of white butyrate over the silver as a primer
and then spray the enamel over that. He said it was possible to sand off
the color coats (the enamel) down to the white dope primer or even down
to the silver. Don't go into the silver coat at all -- if you see it,
stop. Once you get the enamel off of the fabric, spray with butyrate
rejuvenator. After that, you can apply either polyurethane or butyrate
top coats.

If you're plane is like mine was when I sold it, you can see patches of
the white butyrate where the color coats have flaked off of the
horizontal stabilizer.

Randolph made the paints Maule was using back then.

Maule Driver wrote:

I would love to get it redone.

One thing you might consider is to fly it down to Moultrie for an annual
inspection and have the work done at that time. Of course, Maule Flight isn't
the cheapest place for an annual, but they do the best work on Maules of any
place I know of.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

A question for you "dopers" out there.

I have seen a Citabria fabric aircraft sitting in a shop with the floor
covered in big paint pieces that I was told had been stripped by using shop
air and a small air nozzle on a blow gun. I had flown the aircraft
previously and while it's dope (could be paint?) wasn't great it was
flyable. I was told that the surface coat had come off surprisingly easily
and the silver primer that was left looked like it would not require much
further preperation for paint. I was told it only took a couple of hours.
If I remember correctly the wings and control surfaces were removed and
finished separately. Is it common to be able to remove paint or dope in
this manner?

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:9j9Ne.10281$Yb.7100@trndny06...
Maule Driver wrote:

Is that without paint?

That's the whole job, paint and all. I got that price from Rautgunde
several
years ago, though. It may have gone up. They also had a price of ~$15,000
for a
complete renovation.

By the way, I have a '96 "we have them on sale" MX7180a model (actually
built in '95). Not the good paint (still doing it against the hangar
wall). Not the really bad (auto)paint. IOTW, it chips off slowly.

If I'd bought the 180, I might still have mine. On the other hand, the
loan
would've been larger and I might have lost it all.

I found out what the paint scheme was from a Randolph representative at
Oshkosh
several years ago. He said that Maule used the Ceconite process, which
specifies
a coat of nitrate dope, followed by silver butyrate. He said they would
add a
coat of white butyrate over the silver as a primer and then spray the
enamel
over that. He said it was possible to sand off the color coats (the
enamel) down
to the white dope primer or even down to the silver. Don't go into the
silver
coat at all -- if you see it, stop. Once you get the enamel off of the
fabric,
spray with butyrate rejuvenator. After that, you can apply either
polyurethane
or butyrate top coats.

If you're plane is like mine was when I sold it, you can see patches of
the
white butyrate where the color coats have flaked off of the horizontal
stabilizer.

We did not discuss redoing the paint on the metal or fiberglass sections
(unless
maybe he was recommending that technique for those sections too). I know
that
the upper surfaces of my wings were badly peeled by the time I sold it, so
something would have to be done there. Since chemical paint strippers will
melt
Ceconite in a heartbeat, I would consider something like bead-blasting.

Randolph made the paints Maule was using back then.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

private wrote:

Is it common to be able to remove paint or dope in
this manner?

The Randolph paint rep to whom I spoke said that it is not unusual for an enamel
top-coat to peel off of dope this way; in fact, he said I might try using a
pressure washer on my Maule to see if I could avoid sanding the enamel off. I've
never seen dope top-coats separate from dope undercoats, but perhaps it's
possible if the undercoat was not prepared properly. I do not know how well
polyurethane bonds to dope.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.