Schweizer 1-35 and other flapped sailplanes

Jack wrote:
I would have to agree with most of the comments made here, including
the one about there being better ships out there for about the same
money. After all, when I put my money down, I didn't buy a 1-35.

I have never had the PIO problem that someone pointed out, but then
with the primary-subject sailplane, the landing flap is just pulled
back as the stick is moved forward.

I never had the float problem, either. I guess I have always used
enough flap and slowed her down to nothing before dumping any of it
off.

The comment about narrow runways with a slight downwind takeoff roll
and a weak towplane... That's asking for trouble in any sailplane, and
perhaps more so in one of tese ships, but I would think an SZD-55
wouldn't be any easier.

One comment that stuck out was the set 'em and forget 'em thoery.

That was my comment with regard to the trailing edge dive brake/flap
system of the the Ventus and Mosquito. My comment was that once on
*short* final i.e. runway made and on glide for my planned touchdown
point I pull full brakes/flaps and use the stick to control the
remainder of the flight. If the brakes/flaps aren't fully deployed in
the flair, more can be added. I've never found the trailing edge system
to be easily modulated near the ground. My experience has been that if
I try to put them away in the flair I drop onto the runway very inelegantly.

Shawn

and that is the main problem with flaps. Once you have them out and
your energy is down, there's little recourse. With spoilers, you can
always slap them closed and return to high performance configuration.


Flaps are great but spoilers are better.

This is the mentality we are talking about. The "spoilers are better"
mentality. What I see wrong with this is the energy shouldn't be blead
off until flair, just like spoilers. The flaps can be dumped if the
airspeed is still there, just like spoilers. The float will be minimal
if the flaps are cranked in as they should be. If you're using 45
degrees... yep... it's gonna float all the way down the runway. The
flaps should be pulled to max during flair if they're not there
already, and should be dumped only at ground contact to facilitate
aileron control for the rest of the landing run - which should be short
if you used the flaps and slowed during flair. Better than spoilers?
Not in my opinion. Spoilers better than flaps? No to that one as well.

Again, I would stress that either one can be used effectively, with the
flaps having a short field advantage for outlandings.

Both is best. You'll get no argument from anyone on that one.

Jack Womack

As a former long time PIK owner, I am partial to flaps-only. They are
great, and flexible, and facilitate lower energy landings. Fun like a
tailwheel.

But I've landed in extremely gusty/wind shear conditions on several
occassions. That is, with T-storms over or on the airport (stupid?
Yes.) Flying with spoilers and flaps saved the day. Upon reflection if
given a choice between the 2, it would have to be spoilers. In those
admittedly extreme conditions, airspeed excursions are not entirely in
one's control and spoilers-only are better than flaps-only no matter the
level of pilot proficiency.

I would just add that flap-only techniques appear to be very aircraft
specific. The Pik will float in ground effect all day long with 90
degrees cranked in. If you wait until ground contact to start
retracting them, you will not be able to meet a 10 foot spot standard.
Not applicable to similar types.

Mauledriver, aka Foureyes, aka Bill Watson
....I guess you can figure out why I now fly a Maule - Composite
construction, reflex flaps, no racing class, a tailwheel to enforce
proficiency and an engine to land where the Tstorms aren't....

Jack wrote:
and that is the main problem with flaps. Once you have them out and

your energy is down, there's little recourse. With spoilers, you can
always slap them closed and return to high performance configuration.

Flaps are great but spoilers are better.

This is the mentality we are talking about. The "spoilers are better"
mentality. What I see wrong with this is the energy shouldn't be blead
off until flair, just like spoilers. The flaps can be dumped if the
airspeed is still there, just like spoilers. The float will be minimal
if the flaps are cranked in as they should be. If you're using 45
degrees... yep... it's gonna float all the way down the runway. The
flaps should be pulled to max during flair if they're not there
already, and should be dumped only at ground contact to facilitate
aileron control for the rest of the landing run - which should be short
if you used the flaps and slowed during flair. Better than spoilers?
Not in my opinion. Spoilers better than flaps? No to that one as well.

Again, I would stress that either one can be used effectively, with the
flaps having a short field advantage for outlandings.


Both is best. You'll get no argument from anyone on that one.


Jack Womack

Maule Driver wrote:

But I've landed in extremely gusty/wind shear conditions on several
occassions. That is, with T-storms over or on the airport (stupid?
Yes.) Flying with spoilers and flaps saved the day. Upon reflection if
given a choice between the 2, it would have to be spoilers. In those
admittedly extreme conditions, airspeed excursions are not entirely in
one's control and spoilers-only are better than flaps-only no matter the
level of pilot proficiency.

A couple HP owners told me that spoilers are preferable to flaps when
flying fast under clouds with strong lift:

* if the lift suddenly increases and threatens to suck you into the
cloud, spoilers can be quickly deployed keep you below the cloud.

* flaps will first increase the lift as you begin to lower them, and
take you into the cloud. Increasing speed to stay out of the cloud may
put you over the speed limit for the flap setting you need avoid the cloud.

Have other HP owners encountered this situation, and how do they cope
with it?

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

I've never flown an HP. Getting sucked into a cloud seems to primarily
be a strong conditions (e.g. Western US) problem. Happened to me in an
LS6... have no idea what I'd do with a flaps-only ship except exceed
redline. Deploying the spoilers at close to redline scared the stuff
out of me as it was, but it worked.

Eric Greenwell wrote:

A couple HP owners told me that spoilers are preferable to flaps when
flying fast under clouds with strong lift:

* if the lift suddenly increases and threatens to suck you into the
cloud, spoilers can be quickly deployed keep you below the cloud.

* flaps will first increase the lift as you begin to lower them, and
take you into the cloud. Increasing speed to stay out of the cloud may
put you over the speed limit for the flap setting you need avoid the cloud.

Have other HP owners encountered this situation, and how do they cope
with it?

"Maule Driver" wrote ...
I've never flown an HP. Getting sucked into a cloud seems to primarily
be a strong conditions (e.g. Western US) problem. Happened to me in an
LS6... have no idea what I'd do with a flaps-only ship except exceed
redline. Deploying the spoilers at close to redline scared the stuff
out of me as it was, but it worked.

Eric Greenwell wrote:

A couple HP owners told me that spoilers are preferable to flaps when
flying fast under clouds with strong lift:

* if the lift suddenly increases and threatens to suck you into the
cloud, spoilers can be quickly deployed keep you below the cloud.

* flaps will first increase the lift as you begin to lower them, and
take you into the cloud. Increasing speed to stay out of the cloud may
put you over the speed limit for the flap setting you need avoid the
cloud.

Have other HP owners encountered this situation, and how do they cope
with it?

Having flown an HP-14 for 195 hours and a much-weenier-flapped Zuni for
several thousand, all of it out west, and having in both been concerned
about getting sucked into strong cloud streets, here's what I did:

1) immediately slowed down (to some speed below which full flaps could
easily/safely be put down);
2) put down full flaps;
3) changed course to the nearest cloud edge.
4) gave thanks I was flying a flapped ship!

Low stress, structurally safe. Even if one was so
foolish/bold/situationally-unaware as to go into the cloud immediately upon
the pull-up to slow down, who among us canNOT simply provide a stick input
until the stall, prior to losing control in the cloud? If a pilot can do
that, s/he can put down the flaps after the speed bleeds down. (Individual
mileage may vary. Not approved by the Insurance Institute of America or the
American Bar Association.)

Short of having the magic fairy wave a magic wand, I've a hard time
imagining anything simpler and safer in glider/cloud-avoidance terms. If -
for the sake of limiting this discussion - we ignore *how* one comes to be
in the situation of realizing cloud avoidance is (thought to be) a
necessity, and consider only the (forced) choices of either a) opening
spoilers at high speed for the first time beneath a cloud AND successfully
staying out of said cloud (e.g. Maule Driver!), or b) pulling on full flaps
at low speed AND unsuccessfully NOT staying out of said cloud (not me!), the
coward in me opts for "b)" in a heartbeat. Even with the Zuni's wimpy
large-deflection flaps, there is ZERO risk of exceeding maneuvering speed
and pulling the wings off in a spiral dive, because one must *hold* forward
stick w. full flaps to maintain flying speed.

And, yes, the above was tested and incorporated in a plan long before
needing it in both ships...

Regards,
Bob - gliders can never have too much disposable drag - W.

That seems like a workable plan and well thought out.

But, the 6 allowed spoiler deployment up to redline as I recall so
pulling the spoilers was a perfectly legit operation and resulted in
immediate slowing and increased descent rate. Having the spoilers
sucked out and whistling at close to redline did get my attention along
with the hail coming at me from below.

The best solution is 'terminal velocity' spoilers that once deployed,
prevent acceleration to redline. 1-34 had 'em I think. Nice but not
required.

Flaps are workable, spoilers still seem just a bit better to this pilot.

Bob Whelan wrote:
"Maule Driver" wrote ...

I've never flown an HP. Getting sucked into a cloud seems to primarily
be a strong conditions (e.g. Western US) problem. Happened to me in an
LS6... have no idea what I'd do with a flaps-only ship except exceed
redline. Deploying the spoilers at close to redline scared the stuff
out of me as it was, but it worked.


Short of having the magic fairy wave a magic wand, I've a hard time
imagining anything simpler and safer in glider/cloud-avoidance terms. If -
for the sake of limiting this discussion - we ignore *how* one comes to be
in the situation of realizing cloud avoidance is (thought to be) a
necessity, and consider only the (forced) choices of either a) opening
spoilers at high speed for the first time beneath a cloud AND successfully
staying out of said cloud (e.g. Maule Driver!), or b) pulling on full flaps
at low speed AND unsuccessfully NOT staying out of said cloud (not me!), the
coward in me opts for "b)" in a heartbeat. Even with the Zuni's wimpy
large-deflection flaps, there is ZERO risk of exceeding maneuvering speed
and pulling the wings off in a spiral dive, because one must *hold* forward
stick w. full flaps to maintain flying speed.