New CFI

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
Except that the pilot (61.133 (b) (1)) will have stamped on their
certificate a prohibition about carrying persons for hire more than 50
miles *or* at night without an instrument rating. I'd like to see a
General Counsel interpretation as to whether this clause would also
prohibit flight instruction for hire to these limitations.

Since a flight instructor can instruct with only a 3rd class medical,
clearly they are not actually exercising the privileges of their Commercial
certificate while instructing, and so just as clearly any restrictions on
the Commercial certificate do not apply.

My suspicion is that it probably WOULD be interpreted with these
limitations, so cross country or night instruction would be out, and would
severely limit the instructor rating.

Your suspicion is not correct. Not having an instrument rating in no
significant way limits an instructor teaching a primary student.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
Except that the pilot (61.133 (b) (1)) will have stamped on their
certificate a prohibition about carrying persons for hire more than 50
miles *or* at night without an instrument rating. I'd like to see a
General Counsel interpretation as to whether this clause would also
prohibit flight instruction for hire to these limitations.

Since a flight instructor can instruct with only a 3rd class medical,
clearly they are not actually exercising the privileges of their
Commercial certificate while instructing, and so just as clearly any
restrictions on the Commercial certificate do not apply.

My suspicion is that it probably WOULD be interpreted with these
limitations, so cross country or night instruction would be out, and
would severely limit the instructor rating.

Your suspicion is not correct. Not having an instrument rating in no
significant way limits an instructor teaching a primary student.



You've got the reference to the Chief Counsel's opinion on this? Please
cite URL so I can read it for myself.

Jim

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
You've got the reference to the Chief Counsel's opinion on this? Please
cite URL so I can read it for myself.

You can look up your own Chief Counsel opinion, or better yet write them
yourself. This has been discussed numerous times here. On one recent
instance, Jim Burns posted a number of relevant entries from the
quasi-official Part 61 FAQ. You can find that post he

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...7?dmode=source

The FAQ quotes the FAA from the preamble to Parts 61 and 141, which reads in
part: "With respect to the holding of medical certificates by a flight
instructor, the FAA has determined that the compensation a certificated
flight instructor receives for flight instruction is not compensation for
piloting the aircraft, but rather is compensation for the instruction".

It goes on to explain the various regulations, and why all this means you
are not exercising your Commercial Certificate when instructing.

Pete

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...

You've got the reference to the Chief Counsel's opinion on this? Please
cite URL so I can read it for myself.



Here you go Jim

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...ia/pt61FAQ.doc

scroll down to page 31 or 32. There are several other related questions as
well. It is a MSWord File. If you don't have Word let me know an I'd PDF it
and and e-mail it to you.

QUESTION: Do the rules permit a flight instructor to even receive
compensation for instruction when that flight instructor holds only a third
class medical, or maybe does not even hold a current medical certificate at
all?



ANSWER: § 61.23(b)(5); Yes, in accordance with § 61.23(b)(5), a flight
instructor who does not hold a medical certificate may give flight and
ground training and be compensated for it. In the preamble of the parts 61
and 141 final rule that was published in the Federal Register on April 4,
1997 (62 FR 16220-16367) when the FAA revised the entire Part 61, the FAA
stated the following in the Federal Register on page 16242 in response to
whether a medical certificate is required for a flight instructor to give
ground and flight training:



“ With respect to the holding of medical certificates by a flight
instructor, the FAA has determined that the compensation a certificated
flight instructor receives for flight instruction is not compensation for
piloting the aircraft, but rather is compensation for the instruction. A
certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a
required flight crewmember and is receiving compensation for his or her
flight instruction is only exercising the privileges of a private pilot. A
certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a
required flight crewmember and receiving compensation for his or her flight
instruction is not carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire,
nor is he or she, for compensation or hire, acting as pilot in command of an
aircraft. . . . In this same regard, the FAA has determined that a
certificated flight instructor on board an aircraft for the purpose of
providing flight instruction, who does not act as pilot in command or
function as a required flight crewmember, is not performing or exercising
pilot privileges that would require him or her to possess a valid medical
certificate under the FARs.”

A
certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a
required flight crewmember and is receiving compensation for his or her
flight instruction is only exercising the privileges of a private pilot.

Which begs another question... while 61.183 stipulates that one must
have at least a commercial certificate to =apply= for CFI, it is
certainly possible (though unlikely) that after applying for and
becoming a CFI, one could lose their commercial certificate, retaining
only the private pilot certificate. One example would be voluntary
surrender for (weird) insurance or job reasons.

At that point one would have a private pilot and CFI. Is there anything
which prohibits the excercise of the CFI privileges, and charging for it?

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
. ..
[...] after applying for and becoming a CFI, one could lose their
commercial certificate, retaining only the private pilot certificate. One
example would be voluntary surrender for (weird) insurance or job reasons.

Such as? Under what circumstances would the voluntary surrender of one's
Commercial certificate be beneficial for "insurance or job reasons"?

Also keep in mind that the FAA would also need to be willing to not only
accept the surrender of the Commercial certificate, they would have to
reissue the Private certificate. This doesn't sound like the sort of thing
a bureaucracy would actually do. Too much "not in the book" process. The
pilot would probably have to go through the whole Private certification
process all over again.

I'm having a hard time imagining an actual real-world, real-person scenario
in which a pilot could wind up keeping their CFI certificate, but not their
Commercial Pilot certificate. I'd put a modest wager that something like
that has never actually happened.

At that point one would have a private pilot and CFI. Is there anything
which prohibits the excercise of the CFI privileges, and charging for it?

As far as I know, no. But I also suspect this scenario has never existed,
and may never. So it's hard to say what the FAA would actually do with such
a scenario.

Pete

Under what circumstances would the voluntary surrender of one's
Commercial certificate be beneficial for "insurance or job reasons"?

I don't know. I pulled it out of my posterior. From the same place I'd
conjecture an employment prohibition on hiring a commercial pilot. It's
as logical as the prohibition on allowing a pilot-employee to fly his
own airplane to a work related event. Perhaps it's to avoid even the
appearance of an air-taxi operation. I don't know and it doesn't matter.

I also agree it probably never has in fact happened.

Also keep in mind that the FAA would also need to be willing to not only
accept the surrender of the Commercial certificate, they would have to
reissue the Private certificate.

I don't see why not. I do think that they would, as a matter of course,
only do it if the surrender included the CFI, but bureaucracies make
mistakes, and it is not inconcievable that the pilot could end up
causing the FAA to amend its FAQ.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.