Control Tower Controversy brewing in the FAA

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Yes, you would have some competition if each region was periodically bid
out, but certainly not perfect competition in the economics sense of the
word.


But that's the competition that forces private companies to achieve the
efficiencies touted by those that advocate privatization.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Yes, you would have some competition if each region was periodically bid
out, but certainly not perfect competition in the economics sense of the
word.


But that's the competition that forces private companies to achieve the
efficiencies touted by those that advocate privatization.

Automation increases productivity thereby reducing labor.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Yes, you would have some competition if each region was periodically bid
out, but certainly not perfect competition in the economics sense of the
word.



But that's the competition that forces private companies to achieve the
efficiencies touted by those that advocate privatization.



I agree that you need "perfect" competition to yield perfectly low
prices, but perfect competition rarely exists in the real world as it
requires consumers to have perfect knowledge of all alternate products
and their prices. A regional system is far from perfect, but it would
provide much more competition than exists now, but certainly far from
perfect competition.

It is also fairly well established now that a free market isn't the best
way to handle every good and service. I think there are services that
are better handled via a regulated monopoly, a government or other form
of distribution.


Matt

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Because most private companies that perform functions similar
to
governmental agencies are more efficient.

Sure, susccessful private companies are forced by competition to
be more
efficient or fail. But you can't have competition in ATC.

That's what the Bell System thought on Long Distance calling back in
the
70's and 80's regarding their industry.

If the phone company screws up, your call doesn't go through. If
Tony's ATC Service and Aluminum Siding Company gets the low bid and
then screws up, you die. If Big Jimbo's Fire Department and Auto
Repair screws up, you die. If Slick Sammy's Police and Pet Grooming
Station screws up, you die. There's a qualitative difference here,
which is why historically we have tended not to privatize these
functions, at least in the sense of auctioning it off to the lowest
bidder who wants to make a profit at it.

Within a few days, you'll be able to switch phone providers at will
and keep your old phone number. You can't do that with ATC, switching
contractors willy-nilly when one kills people or another comes along
with a better price.

Automation is the natural competitor of civil service.

And if they fail to deliver the goods, someone else gets the deal
(unless
ATC is privatized the way Qwest, the Postal DisService, and most
utilities
are chartered.

So are you volunteering to be the DOA from the ATC screw-up that gets
Tony dumped for incompetence?

As I said in my previous post, it's not about profitability. If we
get ATC privatization, it likely will be a government-chartered
corporation dominated by the airlines (with token representation for
government, GA, and other stakeholders) to tailor the system to their
needs - not the least of which will be keeping airline user costs to a
minimum. Not that that is inherently bad, but look at what happened
to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (two government chartered mortgage
corporations set up to serve home buyers) when they realized that they
could make big bucks using questionable accounting practices.

The current system is far from perfect, but let's not kid ourselves.
ATC privatization, whatever form it takes, will involve trade-offs
that affect safety. The only relevant question is whether these could
be managed so that we do not get unacceptable outcomes.

-- John Mazor
"The search for wisdom is asymptotic."

"Except for Internet newsgroups, where it is divergent..."
-- R J Carpenter

John Mazor wrote:
"Tom S." wrote in message
...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
thlink.net...

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Because most private companies that perform functions similar

to

governmental agencies are more efficient.

Sure, susccessful private companies are forced by competition to

be more

efficient or fail. But you can't have competition in ATC.

That's what the Bell System thought on Long Distance calling back in

the

70's and 80's regarding their industry.


If the phone company screws up, your call doesn't go through. If
Tony's ATC Service and Aluminum Siding Company gets the low bid and
then screws up, you die. If Big Jimbo's Fire Department and Auto
Repair screws up, you die. If Slick Sammy's Police and Pet Grooming
Station screws up, you die. There's a qualitative difference here,
which is why historically we have tended not to privatize these
functions, at least in the sense of auctioning it off to the lowest
bidder who wants to make a profit at it.

Within a few days, you'll be able to switch phone providers at will
and keep your old phone number. You can't do that with ATC, switching
contractors willy-nilly when one kills people or another comes along
with a better price.

Sorry, if the call is 911, somebody very well could die.


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...
John Mazor wrote:

If the phone company screws up, your call doesn't go through. If
Tony's ATC Service and Aluminum Siding Company gets the low bid
and
then screws up, you die. If Big Jimbo's Fire Department and Auto
Repair screws up, you die. If Slick Sammy's Police and Pet
Grooming
Station screws up, you die. There's a qualitative difference
here,
which is why historically we have tended not to privatize these
functions, at least in the sense of auctioning it off to the
lowest
bidder who wants to make a profit at it.

Within a few days, you'll be able to switch phone providers at
will
and keep your old phone number. You can't do that with ATC,
switching
contractors willy-nilly when one kills people or another comes
along
with a better price.

Sorry, if the call is 911, somebody very well could die.

True, but since I don't have the stats on 911 calls, I'll make a WAG
here and restate it to read that if the phone company screws up,
99.999% of the time all that happens is that your call doesn't go
through.

But you swung a two-edged sword by mentioning 911 calls. Once your
call goes through, who do you think is at the other end of the line?
It's not Ernestine the Operator. It's a government employee.

John Mazor wrote:
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

John Mazor wrote:


If the phone company screws up, your call doesn't go through. If
Tony's ATC Service and Aluminum Siding Company gets the low bid

and

then screws up, you die. If Big Jimbo's Fire Department and Auto
Repair screws up, you die. If Slick Sammy's Police and Pet

Grooming

Station screws up, you die. There's a qualitative difference

here,

which is why historically we have tended not to privatize these
functions, at least in the sense of auctioning it off to the

lowest

bidder who wants to make a profit at it.

Within a few days, you'll be able to switch phone providers at

will

and keep your old phone number. You can't do that with ATC,

switching

contractors willy-nilly when one kills people or another comes

along

with a better price.

Sorry, if the call is 911, somebody very well could die.


True, but since I don't have the stats on 911 calls, I'll make a WAG
here and restate it to read that if the phone company screws up,
99.999% of the time all that happens is that your call doesn't go
through.

I have no idea as I have no statistics. However, probably similar stats
apply to ATC. You seem to think that every ATC mistake results in
guaranteed death of a pilot or airplane passenger. This is hardly the
case at all.


But you swung a two-edged sword by mentioning 911 calls. Once your
call goes through, who do you think is at the other end of the line?
It's not Ernestine the Operator. It's a government employee.

Not where I live. Last I knew the dispatching of emergency services was
provided by a private contractor and all of the responders in my area
(rural) are unpaid volunteers.


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...
John Mazor wrote:
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

John Mazor wrote:

If the phone company screws up, your call doesn't go through. If
Tony's ATC Service and Aluminum Siding Company gets the low bid
and then screws up, you die. If Big Jimbo's Fire Department and
Auto
Repair screws up, you die. If Slick Sammy's Police and Pet
Grooming
Station screws up, you die. There's a qualitative difference
here,
which is why historically we have tended not to privatize these
functions, at least in the sense of auctioning it off to the
lowest
bidder who wants to make a profit at it.

Within a few days, you'll be able to switch phone providers at
will
and keep your old phone number. You can't do that with ATC,
switching
contractors willy-nilly when one kills people or another comes
along
with a better price.

Sorry, if the call is 911, somebody very well could die.

True, but since I don't have the stats on 911 calls, I'll make a
WAG
here and restate it to read that if the phone company screws up,
99.999% of the time all that happens is that your call doesn't go
through.

I have no idea as I have no statistics. However, probably similar
stats
apply to ATC. You seem to think that every ATC mistake results in
guaranteed death of a pilot or airplane passenger. This is hardly
the
case at all.

Okay, it was a rhetorical overstatement, but not every 911 failure
results in deaths, either.

But you swung a two-edged sword by mentioning 911 calls. Once
your
call goes through, who do you think is at the other end of the
line?
It's not Ernestine the Operator. It's a government employee.

Not where I live. Last I knew the dispatching of emergency services
was
provided by a private contractor and all of the responders in my
area
(rural) are unpaid volunteers.

Fair enough, but I suspect that in most areas, 911 calls go to the
police or to an emergency dispatch office maintained by local
authorities.

(The contractor gets paid and the responders work for free? Now
that's a recipe for profit!)