Student Drop-Out Rates...why?

Jay Honeck wrote:
You'll notice I've not mentioned the Number One reason people mention for
quitting: Money.

To ignore the money issue is to ignore the elephant in the room.

Right. However, we can't change the money situation. We CAN change
the other variables that are causing the appallingly high student drop
out rate in aviation.

IMHO this is the wrong problem to focus on solving. Up through solo,
flying is all fun and no work. Then you get into the written test and
all the crap to prepare for the checkride. Now it's a chore. I'll bet
getting rid of the written would reduce the attrition rate by at least
25%, perhaps more, but it won't happen anytime soon.

The real problem we should focus on are people who get their license
but then become inactive. There's no shortage of these, and they are
low-hanging fruit.

-cwk.

wrote:

The real problem we should focus on are people who get their license
but then become inactive. There's no shortage of these, and they are
low-hanging fruit.

Ok. You help me find a job within an hour's drive of my home that requires less
than 60 hours a week and pays at least 60K a year (much more if I have to
commute to Manhattan). Preferably involving computers, since that's what my MS
is in. I'll be flying again soon after I find that job.

One friend of mine probably will never fly again, but you never know. He quit
because of lack of time and money, but I think he's lost interest to the point
that he wouldn't start again if he won the lottery.

Another friend of mine quit when the kids started arriving. He was also upset
because he could never find the time to study for the instrument rating (he'd
get maybe two weeks of study and then work would ramp up again). That's a man
who may be back when the kids get through college.

On second thought, maybe these people don't have to be attracted back into
actively participating in aviation. As I understand it, Jay's main issue is that
we need more flyers to allow us to apply more political pressure. It is to be
hoped that that pressure will prevent airport closings and harsh restrictions.
With a few exceptions, most former aviators are likely to be friendly to our cause.

Perhaps the way to go is to start up a non-profit that will concentrate on
informing and/or pressuring non-active pilots about political issues. Go after
people who used to fly and now don't, former AOPA members, former EAA members,
etc.. I suppose that funding would have to come from active aviators, but you
never know.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

George Patterson wrote:
wrote:

The real problem we should focus on are people who get their license
but then become inactive. There's no shortage of these, and they are
low-hanging fruit.

Ok. You help me find a job within an hour's drive of my home that requires less
than 60 hours a week and pays at least 60K a year (much more if I have to
commute to Manhattan). Preferably involving computers, since that's what my MS
is in. I'll be flying again soon after I find that job.

Move out of New Jersey. Work as a consultant and you can live anywhere
you can get a high-speed internet connection. No commute necessary and
real estate costs a lot less. I hire developers and sales people almost
without regard to location these days. If you're good, you can probably
do more than 60k and no job really offers security anymore unless it's
for the gummint.

On second thought, maybe these people don't have to be attracted back into
actively participating in aviation. As I understand it, Jay's main issue is that
we need more flyers to allow us to apply more political pressure. It is to be
hoped that that pressure will prevent airport closings and harsh restrictions.
With a few exceptions, most former aviators are likely to be friendly to our cause.

True, but former aviators do not help to keep small airports, FBOs, and
mechanics from closing for lack of business.

-cwk.

wrote:

Move out of New Jersey.

Out of the question, unfortunately.

I hire developers and sales people almost
without regard to location these days.

Fine. How 'bout hiring one in New Jersey? Drop me a line telling me your
development needs. If I believe I am qualified, I will attempt to convince you
of that. Alternately, I'd be happy to mail you a resume.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

On 2005-08-25, wrote:
Move out of New Jersey. Work as a consultant and you can live anywhere
you can get a high-speed internet connection. No commute necessary and
real estate costs a lot less. I hire developers and sales people almost

Trouble is - if as a computer professional you have a job where you
telecommute (or can telecommute), so can someone from India at a tenth
of your salary. If you want work which gives you the stability to own
and continue to fly an aircraft, you need a job that requires at least
reasonable frequent physical presence so you don't get outsourced.

Dylan Smith wrote:
On 2005-08-25, wrote:
Move out of New Jersey. Work as a consultant and you can live anywhere
you can get a high-speed internet connection. No commute necessary and
real estate costs a lot less. I hire developers and sales people almost

Trouble is - if as a computer professional you have a job where you
telecommute (or can telecommute), so can someone from India at a tenth
of your salary. If you want work which gives you the stability to own
and continue to fly an aircraft, you need a job that requires at least
reasonable frequent physical presence so you don't get outsourced.

The real-world picture is a bit more complicated than this. Working
with offshore resources costs a lot more than just the salary of the
guy in Bangalore. If you're contracting resources in small volume,
reasonably-skilled people can easily cost $2500/month, and in order to
get the job done you will probably need an in-country project manager
who costs another $2500. So a three-man shop costs $10k/mo.

In many cases you could do the same job here in the US with 2 good
coders who can manage themselves, live in your time zone, and
understand American business. You won't find good people for $60k/year
who live in the Manhattan area, but you might find them in Florida,
Texas, or Idaho where everything costs half as much and there's no
income tax.

Companies like GE or Accenture can push rates lower because of scale,
but most companies are not able to support those kinds of operations.
Not to mention that there are still many projects where cultural
knowledge that any American resident has will make things go much, much
easier. There is and always will be a place in the picture for American
IT workers.

-cwk.

Excellent grammar and punctuation, but some wrong facts. Idaho's PIT kicks
in a $1,129 at a rate of 1.6% and rachets up to 7.8% at $22,577.

You were correct that Texas and FLA have no income tax.

Skylune wrote:
Excellent grammar and punctuation, but some wrong facts. Idaho's PIT kicks
in a $1,129 at a rate of 1.6% and rachets up to 7.8% at $22,577.

You were correct that Texas and FLA have no income tax.

If I could bat that average in major league ball, I could afford the
gas to buzz your house every weekend in my 707.

-cwk.

The problem is you have top management who are only looking at short
term savings to justify their quarterly/annual bonus. They only plan on
staying around for two or three years, so why do they care about the
long term benefit to the company?

wrote:
The real-world picture is a bit more complicated than this. Working
with offshore resources costs a lot more than just the salary of the
guy in Bangalore. If you're contracting resources in small volume,
reasonably-skilled people can easily cost $2500/month, and in order to
get the job done you will probably need an in-country project manager
who costs another $2500. So a three-man shop costs $10k/mo.
In many cases you could do the same job here in the US with 2 good
coders who can manage themselves, live in your time zone, and
understand American business. You won't find good people for $60k/year
who live in the Manhattan area, but you might find them in Florida,
Texas, or Idaho where everything costs half as much and there's no
income tax.
Companies like GE or Accenture can push rates lower because of scale,
but most companies are not able to support those kinds of operations.
Not to mention that there are still many projects where cultural
knowledge that any American resident has will make things go much, much
easier. There is and always will be a place in the picture for American
IT workers.

wrote:

You won't find good people for $60k/year
who live in the Manhattan area, ...

You can find some great coders for that in the Manhattan area since the Telecom
collapse a few years ago. Of course, you need to offer half again as much if you
want them to actually work *in* Manhattan, but the surrounding area is somewhat
depressed.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.