Stop whining, America!

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

"Turbulence" on Lake Michigan will turn the stoutest blue-water Navy man
green.

Tee-hee! Don't be silly:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7793

Yep that one was silly I've never been in the Great Lakes but I sure have
been across the ocean. I have seen waves coming over the flight deck of a
carrier and destroyers spending more time under the water than on the
surface. The outside of a hurricane is a very interesting experience at sea.
I think you under estimate the power of the open sea and definitely under
estimate the ability of a professional sailor.
Those destroyer boys are sure a special breed. I tip my hat to them.
Sailing the seas was an adventure I'll never forget. Some of the most
beautiful sunsets and sunrises I've ever seen. Tranquil waters that looked
like the ship was sailing over glass,..and then all of a sudden the most
destructive , powerful force in nature sets it's eyes upon you and you are
looking down a valley of ocean like looking off a mountain top...the next
minute you are looking up at the ocean on either side of you like you are in
the valley looking up at the tops of mountains.
Sitting on the bow of that carrier with your legs hanging off the front
of the ship, playing guitar under a beautiful clear sky full of stars as far
as you can see, the sounds of the waves on the hull as she pushes her way
onward to the next port. Sometimes when you are there it is hard to believe
the awesome force and violence that the same ocean can give you on any other
day at any other time.
A great experience that I wish more people could share. Sailor green on
the Great Lakes? I don't think so. A newbie, sure ..but not a stout old
salt. We did have a boy from NYC that stayed green the entire time we were
out at sea...I mean the entire trip! I know he was miserable but it was
still pretty funny

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

"Turbulence" on Lake Michigan will turn the stoutest blue-water Navy man
green.

Tee-hee! Don't be silly:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7793

W P Dixon wrote:

Sitting on the bow of that carrier with your legs hanging off the
front of the ship, playing guitar under a beautiful clear sky full of
stars as far as you can see, the sounds of the waves on the hull as she
pushes her way onward to the next port. Sometimes when you are there it
is hard to believe the awesome force and violence that the same ocean
can give you on any other day at any other time.

You're making me miss it... Nothing quite like being on a flattop in
the middle of the Pacific as far away from land as possible without
leaving the planet... It was the same feeling I get now on a long
cross-country flight on a calm moon-lit night.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"SCSI is *not* magic. There are *fundamental* *technical* *reasons*
why you have to sacrifice a young goat to your SCSI chain every now
and then."
-- John F. Woods )

I only did the one cruise, which was plenty because of where we ended up.
But being at sea was really beautiful. Whenever I get down and out about
things I think of all I have done and accomplished , and thinking of the
times just looking out at the ocean and seeing nothing but ocean always
makes me smile. My favorite was the waterspouts ! That was just so cool!
Heck at times you could see 6 or 7 at a time. And my 21st birthday bash in
Cadiz, Spain was pretty good. Took the 10 days to cross the Atlantic to
recoup! HAHAHA
Heck my Dad is getting close to 70 and everytime I have ever been around
a beach with the old Navy vet he takes a deep breath and says "Home Again".

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Mark T. Dame" wrote in message
...
W P Dixon wrote:

Sitting on the bow of that carrier with your legs hanging off the
front of the ship, playing guitar under a beautiful clear sky full of
stars as far as you can see, the sounds of the waves on the hull as she
pushes her way onward to the next port. Sometimes when you are there it
is hard to believe the awesome force and violence that the same ocean can
give you on any other day at any other time.

You're making me miss it... Nothing quite like being on a flattop in the
middle of the Pacific as far away from land as possible without leaving
the planet... It was the same feeling I get now on a long cross-country
flight on a calm moon-lit night.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"SCSI is *not* magic. There are *fundamental* *technical* *reasons*
why you have to sacrifice a young goat to your SCSI chain every now
and then."
-- John F. Woods )

W P Dixon wrote:
Yep that one was silly I've never been in the Great Lakes but I sure have
been across the ocean. I have seen waves coming over the flight deck of a
carrier and destroyers spending more time under the water than on the
surface. The outside of a hurricane is a very interesting experience at sea.
I think you under estimate the power of the open sea and definitely under
estimate the ability of a professional sailor.

There is a great book out there called "Fatal Storm" about the 1998
Sydney-Hobart yacht race, which was hit by a massive storm in a similar
fashion to the 1979 Fastnet race. There are a few great stories in it
of rescues made by other sailboats and one account of an oceangoing
tramp steamer pulling alongside a stricken 40' sailboat and winching
the crew right off the deck--in Beaufort 11 conditions. Puts the
Perfect Storm to shame, largely because there were survivors to tell
what really happened. Definitely not a book to take on your next
cruise.

-cwk.

"W P Dixon" wrote

Sailor green on
the Great Lakes? I don't think so. A newbie, sure ..but not a stout old
salt.

Don't be so sure. I would not take anything away from your tales of the
ocean's violence, but the Great Lakes are rough in a totally different way.
They will get your attention.

I'm sure there are some out there that have seen the worst of both. Some
have died, not believing the Great Lakes could be more than they could
handle, even though they were experienced open ocean sailors.
--
Jim in NC

Dying isn't what the man said, he said get green. Big difference. An
experienced sailor can die in Cherokee Lake making a mistake. But he will be
a hell of alot less likely to make that mistake than your normal run of the
mill, put the bass boat in the water type. I am not disputing storms in the
Great Lakes at all, just disputing the strenght as compared to the sea's
fury.
Just some wave info on the Great Lakes,

Rogue waves are not exclusively an ocean phenomena. The National Oceanic and
Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) has recorded rogue wave patterns occurring
frequently on the Great Lakes. Storm wave patterns on Lake Superior in the
winter occasionally reach 26 feet and could create a rogue wave over 57 feet
based on NOAA's observations. One of the theories behind the tragic sinking
of the famous freighter Edmund Fitzgerald is that she was downed by a rogue
wave during a major storm on Lake Superior back in November 1975. No one
will know for sure as everyone perished. from an article in Boat/US
Magazine

From the same article about waves in the ocean that just poof there it is ,
not even a storm....

Imagine cruising on a perfect sailing day and suddenly staring at a 35- to
40-foot wave that comes out of nowhere. "I remember as a boy cruising off of
Cape Hatteras in a calm sea, seeing a rogue wave come out of nowhere,"
remembers Bob Adriance--editor of Seaworthy, the BoatU.S. Marine Insurance
news-journal. "Fortunately we were able to turn and negotiate a wave that
was higher than my dad's 34-foot cruiser."

That's just a normal happening, that isn't even saying the heights of
storm waves, though the article does go on to mention some very impressive
numbers. And mostly admits the ocean is so vast it may be possible that the
bigget waves have never been recorded. 80 foot is not uncommon.

Not doubting storms can be bad in the Great Lakes but a well seasoned
sailor is not going to get green. He is used to running around a ship making
sure aircraft are chained to the deck in these storms at sea. He is a
professional, doesn't mean for an instant he can't die..things happen. But
let's be realistic about a green sailor. There is a big difference in the
wording.



Patrick

student SPL

aircraft structural mech



"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"W P Dixon" wrote

Sailor green on
the Great Lakes? I don't think so. A newbie, sure ..but not a stout old
salt.

Don't be so sure. I would not take anything away from your tales of the
ocean's violence, but the Great Lakes are rough in a totally different
way.
They will get your attention.

I'm sure there are some out there that have seen the worst of both. Some
have died, not believing the Great Lakes could be more than they could
handle, even though they were experienced open ocean sailors.
--
Jim in NC

"W P Dixon" wrote in message
...

One of the theories behind the tragic sinking
of the famous freighter Edmund Fitzgerald is that she was downed by a
rogue
wave during a major storm on Lake Superior back in November 1975. No one
will know for sure as everyone perished. from an article in Boat/US
Magazine

From the same article about waves in the ocean that just poof there it is
,
not even a storm....

Imagine cruising on a perfect sailing day and suddenly staring at a 35- to
40-foot wave that comes out of nowhere. "I remember as a boy cruising off
of
Cape Hatteras in a calm sea, seeing a rogue wave come out of nowhere,"

This hardly describes the wave(s) that destroyed the Fitzgerald.

IIRC, it was 100 knot winds over shallow water. Imagine a nosedive into the
lakebed 200 feet below (for a 700 foot ship).

Matt Barrow wrote:
"W P Dixon" wrote in message
...

One of the theories behind the tragic sinking
of the famous freighter Edmund Fitzgerald is that she was downed by a
rogue
wave during a major storm on Lake Superior back in November 1975. No one
will know for sure as everyone perished. from an article in Boat/US
Magazine

From the same article about waves in the ocean that just poof there it is
,
not even a storm....

Imagine cruising on a perfect sailing day and suddenly staring at a 35- to
40-foot wave that comes out of nowhere. "I remember as a boy cruising off
of
Cape Hatteras in a calm sea, seeing a rogue wave come out of nowhere,"

This hardly describes the wave(s) that destroyed the Fitzgerald.

IIRC, it was 100 knot winds over shallow water. Imagine a nosedive into the
lakebed 200 feet below (for a 700 foot ship).

Windspeed and water depth are not the only variables. You also have to
consider the "fetch" or the distance the wind is blowing over the water
behind that wave, building up its energy. More fetch=taller waves.

Also, as windspeeds approach 100kts, they will actually begin to blow
the peaks of the waves over, and you will get breaking seas in the
middle of the North Atlantic.

The Great Lakes are plenty big enough and located in enough of a wind
tunnel to generate plenty of deadly-serious weather. That being said,
the difference to open-ocean sailing is one of choice. In the Lakes you
are likely to have better warning of a storm's approach, and more
likely to be able to find safe harbor before it hits. If you do end up
in distress, help is possibly much nearer. Out in the middle of the
ocean, you may have no choice, and the nearest help may be another
vessel just as far up ---- creek as you. But once you're in the stuff,
being one mile offshore can be just as bad as one thousand. No
knowledgeable oceangoing mariner would look down on the experience of a
Great Laker.

-cwk.

And nor am I,
I am wondering why the Great Laker that isn't a sailor is passing a
judgement on Ocean sailors. I said in the thread numerous times I do not
question the power of the body of water. I do question hard core salts being
green in it.

Patrick

wrote in message
oups.com...

Matt Barrow wrote:
"W P Dixon" wrote in message
...

One of the theories behind the tragic sinking
of the famous freighter Edmund Fitzgerald is that she was downed by a
rogue
wave during a major storm on Lake Superior back in November 1975. No
one
will know for sure as everyone perished. from an article in Boat/US
Magazine

From the same article about waves in the ocean that just poof there it
is
,
not even a storm....

Imagine cruising on a perfect sailing day and suddenly staring at a 35-
to
40-foot wave that comes out of nowhere. "I remember as a boy cruising
off
of
Cape Hatteras in a calm sea, seeing a rogue wave come out of nowhere,"

This hardly describes the wave(s) that destroyed the Fitzgerald.

IIRC, it was 100 knot winds over shallow water. Imagine a nosedive into
the
lakebed 200 feet below (for a 700 foot ship).

Windspeed and water depth are not the only variables. You also have to
consider the "fetch" or the distance the wind is blowing over the water
behind that wave, building up its energy. More fetch=taller waves.

Also, as windspeeds approach 100kts, they will actually begin to blow
the peaks of the waves over, and you will get breaking seas in the
middle of the North Atlantic.

The Great Lakes are plenty big enough and located in enough of a wind
tunnel to generate plenty of deadly-serious weather. That being said,
the difference to open-ocean sailing is one of choice. In the Lakes you
are likely to have better warning of a storm's approach, and more
likely to be able to find safe harbor before it hits. If you do end up
in distress, help is possibly much nearer. Out in the middle of the
ocean, you may have no choice, and the nearest help may be another
vessel just as far up ---- creek as you. But once you're in the stuff,
being one mile offshore can be just as bad as one thousand. No
knowledgeable oceangoing mariner would look down on the experience of a
Great Laker.

-cwk.