Stop whining, America!

"JH" == Jay Honeck writes:

JH Well, a very serious argument can be made that the
JH environmental regulations of the last 30 years have seriously
JH harmed our economy.

In your original post you said the US economy is on track to double in
18 years, now you're saying the economy has been seriously harmed.
Which way is it?

Perhaps you'd like to live in the former Soviet areas, which have
neither a good economy nor a good environment. Not me--I'm very
grateful for the environmental regulation, think we probably need
more, and don't think it will hurt our economy a bit.

JH Well, a very serious argument can be made that the
JH environmental regulations of the last 30 years have seriously
JH harmed our economy.

In your original post you said the US economy is on track to double in
18 years, now you're saying the economy has been seriously harmed.
Which way is it?

Both, of course. Our economy has grown strongly and well -- but away from
manufacturing.

Why are we no longer able to compete in the manufacturing arena? High cost
of production -- far higher than our competitors.

What goes into the high cost of production? Labor costs, of course, and
infrastructure costs. We won't belabor the labor costs (ooo, sorry), but
our infrastructure costs are SO far out of line with our competitors (and
common sense) that I'm amazed ANYTHING is made in this country anymore.
EVERYTHING is regulated -- everything.

And this stupid over-regulation has invaded every facet of business, going
far beyond environmental laws or the manufacturing realm. Here are just a
few examples I must deal with locally:

- If I remodel the hotel TOO extensively, I will have to comply with the
Federal ADA laws -- something we are grandfathered under, because the hotel
is 26 years old. This would mean going out of business.
- If I paint stripes in my four parking lots, I must put "x" number of
handicapped parking spots right up near the doors, rather than allowing my
arriving guests the convenient spots for loading/unloading. Therefore, I
don't paint stripes in my lots.
- If I were to add a new parking lot, I would have to comply with new laws
that stipulate that I plant "x" number for trees for every paved parking
spot. So I get by with my current parking lots.
- If I were to change the signage out front of the hotel too dramatically
(say, by adding an airplane to the sign?), it would come under more recent
regulations that prohibit a 3-story sign in front of a business. So, I
make-do with my 20-year-old sign.
- City ordinance prohibited us from putting a "Grand Opening" sign out front
of the hotel when we bought the place 3 years ago. That's right -- the
local bureaucrats have wound their tendrils so tightly around the throats of
businesspeople that even something as innocent as a "Grand Opening" sign is
forbidden by law.

Now, can you imagine what it would take to build an oil refinery??? We
can't even change our sign without ****ing off some scuzz-ball bureaucrat!

Our country is screwed up far worse than the average guy on the street can
imagine.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

So "stop whining America" turns into "whining about zoning laws." Cool.

Seth

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:fiRPe.282953$x96.223118@attbi_s72...
JH Well, a very serious argument can be made that the
JH environmental regulations of the last 30 years have seriously
JH harmed our economy.

In your original post you said the US economy is on track to double in
18 years, now you're saying the economy has been seriously harmed.
Which way is it?

Both, of course. Our economy has grown strongly and well -- but away from
manufacturing.

Why are we no longer able to compete in the manufacturing arena? High
cost of production -- far higher than our competitors.

What goes into the high cost of production? Labor costs, of course, and
infrastructure costs. We won't belabor the labor costs (ooo, sorry), but
our infrastructure costs are SO far out of line with our competitors (and
common sense) that I'm amazed ANYTHING is made in this country anymore.
EVERYTHING is regulated -- everything.

And this stupid over-regulation has invaded every facet of business, going
far beyond environmental laws or the manufacturing realm. Here are just
a few examples I must deal with locally:

- If I remodel the hotel TOO extensively, I will have to comply with the
Federal ADA laws -- something we are grandfathered under, because the
hotel is 26 years old. This would mean going out of business.
- If I paint stripes in my four parking lots, I must put "x" number of
handicapped parking spots right up near the doors, rather than allowing my
arriving guests the convenient spots for loading/unloading. Therefore, I
don't paint stripes in my lots.
- If I were to add a new parking lot, I would have to comply with new laws
that stipulate that I plant "x" number for trees for every paved parking
spot. So I get by with my current parking lots.
- If I were to change the signage out front of the hotel too dramatically
(say, by adding an airplane to the sign?), it would come under more recent
regulations that prohibit a 3-story sign in front of a business. So, I
make-do with my 20-year-old sign.
- City ordinance prohibited us from putting a "Grand Opening" sign out
front of the hotel when we bought the place 3 years ago. That's right --
the local bureaucrats have wound their tendrils so tightly around the
throats of businesspeople that even something as innocent as a "Grand
Opening" sign is forbidden by law.

Now, can you imagine what it would take to build an oil refinery??? We
can't even change our sign without ****ing off some scuzz-ball bureaucrat!

Our country is screwed up far worse than the average guy on the street can
imagine.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

- If I remodel the hotel TOO extensively, I will have to comply with the
Federal ADA laws -- something we are grandfathered under, because the hotel
is 26 years old. This would mean going out of business.
- If I paint stripes in my four parking lots, I must put "x" number of
handicapped parking spots right up near the doors, rather than allowing my
arriving guests the convenient spots for loading/unloading. Therefore, I
don't paint stripes in my lots.

I don't disagree at all with these laws (except I think x is too high in
most places I've seen).

- If I were to add a new parking lot, I would have to comply with new laws
that stipulate that I plant "x" number for trees for every paved parking
spot. So I get by with my current parking lots.

I very much support this law. There's too much pavement already. Even
in places where there's a lot of land, it's too late too quickly. BTDT

- If I were to change the signage out front of the hotel too dramatically
(say, by adding an airplane to the sign?), it would come under more recent
regulations that prohibit a 3-story sign in front of a business. So, I
make-do with my 20-year-old sign.

This is also a good law. As a person who has to look at those three
story signs, I'd much rather look at three story trees, or sky. Of
course it's "different" when it's =your= business, but like the
internet, there are two hunrded million people out there, and every one
of them has a special message, just for you.

- City ordinance prohibited us from putting a "Grand Opening" sign out front
of the hotel when we bought the place 3 years ago. That's right -- the
local bureaucrats have wound their tendrils so tightly around the throats of
businesspeople that even something as innocent as a "Grand Opening" sign is
forbidden by law.

Maybe they were bitten by the oriental rug dealers, who have a Grand
Opening every week. Were that the case, I'd support that law too.

I've been to places that do not have such onerous regulations. The
result is that electrical connections are made by twisting wires
together and letting them hang loosely. Bottled water is made in the
street by filling an old bottle with a hose, and sealing it with a tape
machine. The neighbor can build a six story luxury apartment building
right up to the property line and the street, next to your one story
house, and the other neighbor can live in a shack with open garbage
pits. The street is filled with cars with boom boxes that would power
Milwaukee for a week just from the friction of the air molecules.

There are plusses and minuses on both sides, but just because =you= have
a business you want to promote or alter doesn't mean that the rest of
the world should have to put up with the side effects.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jay Honeck wrote:

Both, of course. Our economy has grown strongly and well --

Not in the NY-NJ area it hasn't.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

George Patterson wrote:
Jay Honeck wrote:


Both, of course. Our economy has grown strongly and well --


Not in the NY-NJ area it hasn't.

I must have missed it here in our area too (central TX) because, last I
checked, the local economy was anything but red hot. For example, a
little over a year ago I applied for a job answering phones for Sears -
they had had _1700_ applicants for that one job at that time. That was
basically the story for every job I applied for.

Regarding the cost of our infrastructure, it's not a simple equation.
One of the reasons labor is so expensive in the US is because it's so
well protected. You have to pay a minimum wage, you have to provide a
minimal level of safety in your work environment, you can't hire 15 year
old children, nor make them work 14 hour days for 5 dollars, you have to
follow various rules as far as time off and benifits and so on.

In fact, the history of labor in the US is long and bloody - those
protections aren't just onerous inconveniences for the rich, but
hard-won protections for the people and their families.

Now it should be clear why "globalization" is so seductive for US
businesses - other economies such as China and India don't have the same
protections in place for their labor pools. In fact, they're just ripe
for the picking as well as cheap, cheap, cheap.

When you can hire and use a foreign laborer for 1/10 of the cost of an
American equivalent to do the same job, well, there goes your
high-fallootin' principles against exploitation of cheap labor.

Don't ask me why I know all this.....

In sum, there's a LOT wrong with our current situation - it's
complicated and will be very difficult and painful to fix...

LS
N646F

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"ls" wrote in message
...
George Patterson wrote:
Jay Honeck wrote:


Both, of course. Our economy has grown strongly and well --


Not in the NY-NJ area it hasn't.

I must have missed it here in our area too (central TX) because, last I
checked, the local economy was anything but red hot. For example, a
little over a year ago I applied for a job answering phones for Sears -
they had had _1700_ applicants for that one job at that time. That was
basically the story for every job I applied for.

Regarding the cost of our infrastructure, it's not a simple equation.
One of the reasons labor is so expensive in the US is because it's so
well protected. You have to pay a minimum wage, you have to provide a
minimal level of safety in your work environment,

Safety procedures are actually quite cheap, and done right can make things
MORE efficient.

For example, OSHA require we fabricate our work scaffolds in a certain
manner and using certain materials and parts. My CS (Construction
Supervisor) can make a MUCH better scaffold )moe rigid, more stable) out of
material lying around the job site. It costs a few hundred dollars in time
and material. OSHA's, takes days and costs about $10,000.

Ever hear the story of the fish processing plant in Alaska that was shut
down because it's water discharge was not done my EPA guidelines even
through it's discharge was like six times cleaner than the EPA rules?

you can't hire 15 year
old children, nor make them work 14 hour days for 5 dollars, you have to
follow various rules as far as time off and benifits and so on.

Gee, I'd like to find some 15 year old Civil Engineers. They must be state
certified (that's MY requirement, not the states).

In fact, the history of labor in the US is long and bloody - those
protections aren't just onerous inconveniences for the rich, but
hard-won protections for the people and their families.

ANd then they took those protections to such idiotic extremes, such as
requiring five people on shift to do the work that two could handle easily.

Ever go by a road construction site and see a whole crew just standing
around leaning in shovels and just shooting the breeze?

Now it should be clear why "globalization" is so seductive for US
businesses - other economies such as China and India don't have the same
protections in place for their labor pools. In fact, they're just ripe
for the picking as well as cheap, cheap, cheap.

And their efficiencies...the same efficiencies that got the US it's big
boost in the 1800's.


When you can hire and use a foreign laborer for 1/10 of the cost of an
American equivalent to do the same job, well, there goes your
high-fallootin' principles against exploitation of cheap labor.

Don't ask me why I know all this.....

It's quite evident how you know this: it's the same bilge the public
"education" system has been cramming up kids asses for a couple generations.


In sum, there's a LOT wrong with our current situation - it's
complicated and will be very difficult and painful to fix...

....as long as we need/demand government bureaucracy to fix it.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC. (Owner)
Montrose, CO

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...
Ever hear the story of the fish processing plant in Alaska that was shut
down because it's water discharge was not done my EPA guidelines even
through it's discharge was like six times cleaner than the EPA rules?

No, I've not heard that story. Do you have a reference for it?

--Gary

Matt Barrow wrote:

Safety procedures are actually quite cheap, and done right can make things
MORE efficient.

For example, OSHA require we fabricate our work scaffolds in a certain
manner and using certain materials and parts. My CS (Construction
Supervisor) can make a MUCH better scaffold )moe rigid, more stable) out of
material lying around the job site. It costs a few hundred dollars in time
and material. OSHA's, takes days and costs about $10,000.

Ever hear the story of the fish processing plant in Alaska that was shut
down because it's water discharge was not done my EPA guidelines even
through it's discharge was like six times cleaner than the EPA rules?

Of course, but what if there were no OSHA and no laws governing
occupational safety and health? How strong would the incentive be then
to implement _any_ safety procedures whatsoever? No need to answer out
loud, just think about it. Hint: US history provides a good answer to
this question.

Gee, I'd like to find some 15 year old Civil Engineers.

I'm sure you would.....

They must be state
certified (that's MY requirement, not the states).

ANd then they took those protections to such idiotic extremes, such as
requiring five people on shift to do the work that two could handle easily.

Ever go by a road construction site and see a whole crew just standing
around leaning in shovels and just shooting the breeze?

Sorry - merely pointing out abuses of the rules doesn't make a case for
eliminating them.

And their efficiencies...the same efficiencies that got the US it's big
boost in the 1800's.

Heh. You obviously have never worked for an outsourcer....

It's quite evident how you know this: it's the same bilge the public
"education" system has been cramming up kids asses for a couple generations.

Nope. Try again.....

...as long as we need/demand government bureaucracy to fix it.

Sorry, again, merely pointing out abuses doesn't make your case against
bereaucracy (though it's certainly undeniable that such things do happen).

There are well-known and well-worn reasons that we need governments,
regardless of the abuses of its power that you're pointing out.

All of this is in the history and philosophy books....

LS
N646F

"Matt Barrow" wrote

It's quite evident how you know this: it's the same bilge the public
"education" system has been cramming up kids asses for a couple
generations.

Unfortunately, we are cramming what they (state and federal dept. of ed.)
says we have to cram. Our hands are tied.
--
Jim in NC