Stop whining, America!

Jay Honeck wrote:

Both, of course. Our economy has grown strongly and well --

Not in the NY-NJ area it hasn't.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

George Patterson wrote:
Jay Honeck wrote:


Both, of course. Our economy has grown strongly and well --


Not in the NY-NJ area it hasn't.

I must have missed it here in our area too (central TX) because, last I
checked, the local economy was anything but red hot. For example, a
little over a year ago I applied for a job answering phones for Sears -
they had had _1700_ applicants for that one job at that time. That was
basically the story for every job I applied for.

Regarding the cost of our infrastructure, it's not a simple equation.
One of the reasons labor is so expensive in the US is because it's so
well protected. You have to pay a minimum wage, you have to provide a
minimal level of safety in your work environment, you can't hire 15 year
old children, nor make them work 14 hour days for 5 dollars, you have to
follow various rules as far as time off and benifits and so on.

In fact, the history of labor in the US is long and bloody - those
protections aren't just onerous inconveniences for the rich, but
hard-won protections for the people and their families.

Now it should be clear why "globalization" is so seductive for US
businesses - other economies such as China and India don't have the same
protections in place for their labor pools. In fact, they're just ripe
for the picking as well as cheap, cheap, cheap.

When you can hire and use a foreign laborer for 1/10 of the cost of an
American equivalent to do the same job, well, there goes your
high-fallootin' principles against exploitation of cheap labor.

Don't ask me why I know all this.....

In sum, there's a LOT wrong with our current situation - it's
complicated and will be very difficult and painful to fix...

LS
N646F

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"ls" wrote in message
...
George Patterson wrote:
Jay Honeck wrote:


Both, of course. Our economy has grown strongly and well --


Not in the NY-NJ area it hasn't.

I must have missed it here in our area too (central TX) because, last I
checked, the local economy was anything but red hot. For example, a
little over a year ago I applied for a job answering phones for Sears -
they had had _1700_ applicants for that one job at that time. That was
basically the story for every job I applied for.

Regarding the cost of our infrastructure, it's not a simple equation.
One of the reasons labor is so expensive in the US is because it's so
well protected. You have to pay a minimum wage, you have to provide a
minimal level of safety in your work environment,

Safety procedures are actually quite cheap, and done right can make things
MORE efficient.

For example, OSHA require we fabricate our work scaffolds in a certain
manner and using certain materials and parts. My CS (Construction
Supervisor) can make a MUCH better scaffold )moe rigid, more stable) out of
material lying around the job site. It costs a few hundred dollars in time
and material. OSHA's, takes days and costs about $10,000.

Ever hear the story of the fish processing plant in Alaska that was shut
down because it's water discharge was not done my EPA guidelines even
through it's discharge was like six times cleaner than the EPA rules?

you can't hire 15 year
old children, nor make them work 14 hour days for 5 dollars, you have to
follow various rules as far as time off and benifits and so on.

Gee, I'd like to find some 15 year old Civil Engineers. They must be state
certified (that's MY requirement, not the states).

In fact, the history of labor in the US is long and bloody - those
protections aren't just onerous inconveniences for the rich, but
hard-won protections for the people and their families.

ANd then they took those protections to such idiotic extremes, such as
requiring five people on shift to do the work that two could handle easily.

Ever go by a road construction site and see a whole crew just standing
around leaning in shovels and just shooting the breeze?

Now it should be clear why "globalization" is so seductive for US
businesses - other economies such as China and India don't have the same
protections in place for their labor pools. In fact, they're just ripe
for the picking as well as cheap, cheap, cheap.

And their efficiencies...the same efficiencies that got the US it's big
boost in the 1800's.


When you can hire and use a foreign laborer for 1/10 of the cost of an
American equivalent to do the same job, well, there goes your
high-fallootin' principles against exploitation of cheap labor.

Don't ask me why I know all this.....

It's quite evident how you know this: it's the same bilge the public
"education" system has been cramming up kids asses for a couple generations.


In sum, there's a LOT wrong with our current situation - it's
complicated and will be very difficult and painful to fix...

....as long as we need/demand government bureaucracy to fix it.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC. (Owner)
Montrose, CO

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...
Ever hear the story of the fish processing plant in Alaska that was shut
down because it's water discharge was not done my EPA guidelines even
through it's discharge was like six times cleaner than the EPA rules?

No, I've not heard that story. Do you have a reference for it?

--Gary

Matt Barrow wrote:

Safety procedures are actually quite cheap, and done right can make things
MORE efficient.

For example, OSHA require we fabricate our work scaffolds in a certain
manner and using certain materials and parts. My CS (Construction
Supervisor) can make a MUCH better scaffold )moe rigid, more stable) out of
material lying around the job site. It costs a few hundred dollars in time
and material. OSHA's, takes days and costs about $10,000.

Ever hear the story of the fish processing plant in Alaska that was shut
down because it's water discharge was not done my EPA guidelines even
through it's discharge was like six times cleaner than the EPA rules?

Of course, but what if there were no OSHA and no laws governing
occupational safety and health? How strong would the incentive be then
to implement _any_ safety procedures whatsoever? No need to answer out
loud, just think about it. Hint: US history provides a good answer to
this question.

Gee, I'd like to find some 15 year old Civil Engineers.

I'm sure you would.....

They must be state
certified (that's MY requirement, not the states).

ANd then they took those protections to such idiotic extremes, such as
requiring five people on shift to do the work that two could handle easily.

Ever go by a road construction site and see a whole crew just standing
around leaning in shovels and just shooting the breeze?

Sorry - merely pointing out abuses of the rules doesn't make a case for
eliminating them.

And their efficiencies...the same efficiencies that got the US it's big
boost in the 1800's.

Heh. You obviously have never worked for an outsourcer....

It's quite evident how you know this: it's the same bilge the public
"education" system has been cramming up kids asses for a couple generations.

Nope. Try again.....

...as long as we need/demand government bureaucracy to fix it.

Sorry, again, merely pointing out abuses doesn't make your case against
bereaucracy (though it's certainly undeniable that such things do happen).

There are well-known and well-worn reasons that we need governments,
regardless of the abuses of its power that you're pointing out.

All of this is in the history and philosophy books....

LS
N646F

"Matt Barrow" wrote

It's quite evident how you know this: it's the same bilge the public
"education" system has been cramming up kids asses for a couple
generations.

Unfortunately, we are cramming what they (state and federal dept. of ed.)
says we have to cram. Our hands are tied.
--
Jim in NC

"ls" wrote in message
...
George Patterson wrote:
Jay Honeck wrote:


Both, of course. Our economy has grown strongly and well --


Not in the NY-NJ area it hasn't.

I must have missed it here in our area too (central TX) because, last I
checked, the local economy was anything but red hot. For example, a little
over a year ago I applied for a job answering phones for Sears - they had
had _1700_ applicants for that one job at that time. That was basically
the story for every job I applied for.

Regarding the cost of our infrastructure, it's not a simple equation. One
of the reasons labor is so expensive in the US is because it's so well
protected. You have to pay a minimum wage, you have to provide a minimal
level of safety in your work environment

It is cheaper to prevent an accident than to deal with the aftermath.

, you can't hire 15 year
old children, nor make them work 14 hour days for 5 dollars,

This is bad?

you have to follow various rules as far as time off and benifits and so on.

Now it should be clear why "globalization" is so seductive for US
businesses - other economies such as China and India don't have the same
protections in place for their labor pools. In fact, they're just ripe for
the picking as well as cheap, cheap, cheap.

When you can hire and use a foreign laborer for 1/10 of the cost of an
American equivalent to do the same job, well, there goes your
high-fallootin' principles against exploitation of cheap labor.


If US based companies hired workers for 10X the wages of their (foriegn)
competitors, do you think that anyone would buy their products? What would
happen to the jobs then?

Mike
MU-2

In article et,
"Mike Rapoport" wrote:

It is cheaper to prevent an accident than to deal with the aftermath.

not always.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

In article ,
Bob Noel wrote:
In article et,
"Mike Rapoport" wrote:

It is cheaper to prevent an accident than to deal with the aftermath.

not always.


ask ford


--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://e.nn.cl |
| Yo.

In article ,
Eduardo K. wrote:

It is cheaper to prevent an accident than to deal with the aftermath.

not always.

ask ford

Think airbag.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule