Hurricane relief

Gary Drescher wrote:
The widespread violence at the shelters and the massive looting campaign
were due to the "dissipation of civil authority"?

BWAHAHAHAHA!


Uh, yes, despite your eloquent and incisive uppercase refutation. You didn't
see this conduct to this extent in New Orleans *before* civil authority
collapsed, did you? And surely you're aware of how often such conduct occurs
in other situations where civil authority recedes or is overwhelmed, even in
the absence of any other emergency (for example, the extensive looting and
bank robberies that immediately broke out when the Montreal police went on
strike in 1969; the vandalism and riots that frequently accompany sports
events in the US and Europe; the vandalism and rioting just for the fun of
it that have occurred at many New England colleges over the past few years;
the extensive criminal looting and violence--separate from pro- or
anti-occupation combat--in Iraq since our invasion...).

But sending in a military with orders that say "shoot to kill" seems to
only give a disorganized rabble a common enemey and a cause to organize
-- doesn't it?

After all, armed occupation seems to have solved so many problems
quickly and easily in the past -- and with no nasty side-effects,
either! /sarcasm


-Luke

"Luke Scharf" wrote in message
...
But sending in a military with orders that say "shoot to kill" seems to
only give a disorganized rabble a common enemey and a cause to organize --
doesn't it?

After all, armed occupation seems to have solved so many problems quickly
and easily in the past -- and with no nasty side-effects, either!
/sarcasm

Armed invasion and occupation by a foreign power is vastly different from
the lawful introduction of domestic forces to re-establish civil protection.
The folks in N.O. are not treating the National Guard as an enemy--in part
because of the leadership of Gen. Honore (I'm thinking of the footage of him
running around ordering his combat-stance troops to "Point those goddamn
weapons down" so they wouldn't appear unnecessarily hostile and provoke
violence instead of preventing it).

--Gary

Gary Drescher wrote:
The folks in N.O. are not treating the National Guard as an enemy--in part
because of the leadership of Gen. Honore (I'm thinking of the footage of him
running around ordering his combat-stance troops to "Point those goddamn
weapons down" so they wouldn't appear unnecessarily hostile and provoke
violence instead of preventing it).

Smart guy! I don't watch TV, though, so I must have missed that
footage. Keeping the mission peaceful seems like the only way to make
the relief effort work.


It's hard to avoid hearing the Bushisms, though. The Bushism about
shooting-looters-to-kill combined with stories about people being shot
makes it seem like someone at the top ain't though things through.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Police_s...2C _five_dead
- Police shoot eight gunmen on New Orleans bridge, five dead. Bearing
arms isn't illegal in this country -- what really happened? What about
the due-process rights of those "gunmen"?

http://cryptome.org/kat05/pict58.jpg -- Leonard Thomas, 23, cries after
a SWAT team burst into the flooded home he and his family were living in
on Monday, Sept. 5, 2005. Neighbors had reported that they were
squatting in the house in the wake of Hurricane Katrina but the
authorities left after his family proved they owned the house. Some
rescuers are not taking any more food and water to those who have
decided to stay in an effort to force them out. (AP Photo/Rick Bowmer)

Scary... Let's just hope that when I walk down a street in Virginia
that my belt-clip cell-phone holder doesn't look like a gun-holster,
that I'm not mistaken for a looter, that I'm not mistaken a squatter, or
(as happened to a friend recently when he was staying as his brother's
house) that I'm not on the receiving end of false-alarm for a "robbery
in progress". Let's furthermore hope that no TFR's pop up while I'm in
the air, so that I don't get mistaken for a terrorist.



But, they are making some progress:
http://cryptome.org/kat05/pict57.jpg - A military helicopter drops a
sandbag as work continues to repair the 17th Street canal levee Monday,
Sept. 5, 2005, in New Orleans. (AP Photo/David J. Phillip)

And, just for balance: http://cryptome.org/kat05/pict39.jpg (the AP
caption is useless)

-Luke

Luke Scharf wrote:

And, just for balance: http://cryptome.org/kat05/pict39.jpg (the AP
caption is useless)

So's the photo without some sort of caption. What's in the bag? Looks like it
might be a lionfish, but it would take a real stupid man to hold the bag like
that if it were.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Luke Scharf wrote in message ...
Gary Drescher wrote:
[snip]

It's hard to avoid hearing the Bushisms, though. The Bushism about
shooting-looters-to-kill combined with stories about people being shot
makes it seem like someone at the top ain't though things through.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Police_s...Orleans_bridge
%2C_five_dead
- Police shoot eight gunmen on New Orleans bridge, five dead. Bearing
arms isn't illegal in this country -- what really happened? What about
the due-process rights of those "gunmen"?

You mean the gunmen who were shooting at the folks trying to fix the levee?
My brother might be down there helping out (not as a contractor), and if
he's there with someone shooting at him, I hope the police shoot the
shooters first.

http://cryptome.org/kat05/pict58.jpg -- Leonard Thomas, 23, cries after
a SWAT team burst into the flooded home he and his family were living in
on Monday, Sept. 5, 2005. Neighbors had reported that they were
squatting in the house in the wake of Hurricane Katrina but the
authorities left after his family proved they owned the house. Some
rescuers are not taking any more food and water to those who have
decided to stay in an effort to force them out. (AP Photo/Rick Bowmer)

Scary... Let's just hope that when I walk down a street in Virginia
that my belt-clip cell-phone holder doesn't look like a gun-holster,

Let's just hope you don't take your cell-phone out of the holster and aim it
at someone. Do you honestly think authorities are just going around killing
anyone who has something that might possibly look like a gun?

that I'm not mistaken for a looter,

C'mon...do you actually think that they're going around automatically
shooting at anyone who looks like they might be looting?

that I'm not mistaken a squatter, or
(as happened to a friend recently when he was staying as his brother's
house) that I'm not on the receiving end of false-alarm for a "robbery
in progress". Let's furthermore hope that no TFR's pop up while I'm in
the air, so that I don't get mistaken for a terrorist.

I kinda thought pre-flight briefings would take care of that. Do they
actually put up TFRs with no warnings?

Maybe the solution would be to completely eliminate all law enforcement of
any kind, which would take care of the problems you're concerned about.

- Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
...
Luke Scharf wrote in message ...

- Police shoot eight gunmen on New Orleans bridge, five dead. Bearing
arms isn't illegal in this country -- what really happened? What about
the due-process rights of those "gunmen"?

You mean the gunmen who were shooting at the folks trying to fix the
levee?
My brother might be down there helping out (not as a contractor), and if
he's there with someone shooting at him, I hope the police shoot the
shooters first.



That story took on wings of its own.

A cop spokesman, in a press conference shown on CNN yesterday, while talking
about other subjects, specifically made a point of trying to correct the
versions of this particular story.

His version says 5 guys carrying guns were spotted on the bridge. Police
approached them, and the guys opened fire on the cops at point blank range.
Cops returned fire and 2 of the perps were known to be dead, others were
hit. He stressed that NEVER were any contractors involved. The cops did not
shoot at contractors; the perps did not shoot at contractors.

Today there are a few stories around discussing the many versions of this
event, but the cop-spokesman's version does not yet seem to have made it to
print.

This points out strongly that media no longer collect and report facts.
They report other people's rumours.

Icebound wrote in message ...

"Rick" wrote in message
...
Luke Scharf wrote in message ...

- Police shoot eight gunmen on New Orleans bridge, five dead. Bearing
arms isn't illegal in this country -- what really happened? What about
the due-process rights of those "gunmen"?

You mean the gunmen who were shooting at the folks trying to fix the
levee?
My brother might be down there helping out (not as a contractor), and if
he's there with someone shooting at him, I hope the police shoot the
shooters first.



That story took on wings of its own.

There's likely to be a lot of that in a situation like that.

A cop spokesman, in a press conference shown on CNN yesterday, while
talking
about other subjects, specifically made a point of trying to correct the
versions of this particular story.

His version says 5 guys carrying guns were spotted on the bridge. Police
approached them, and the guys opened fire on the cops at point blank range.
Cops returned fire and 2 of the perps were known to be dead, others were
hit. He stressed that NEVER were any contractors involved. The cops did
not
shoot at contractors; the perps did not shoot at contractors.

Today there are a few stories around discussing the many versions of this
event, but the cop-spokesman's version does not yet seem to have made it to
print.

This points out strongly that media no longer collect and report facts.
They report other people's rumours.

The stories I saw claimed to be sourced from both Corps and Police. In this
kind of situation it must be extremely hard to get direct access to the
people involved. It will be interesting to see what the final version is.

- Rick

Rick wrote in message ...
Icebound wrote in message ...

"Rick" wrote in message
...
Luke Scharf wrote in message ...

- Police shoot eight gunmen on New Orleans bridge, five dead. Bearing
arms isn't illegal in this country -- what really happened? What about
the due-process rights of those "gunmen"?

You mean the gunmen who were shooting at the folks trying to fix the
levee?
My brother might be down there helping out (not as a contractor), and if
he's there with someone shooting at him, I hope the police shoot the
shooters first.



That story took on wings of its own.

There's likely to be a lot of that in a situation like that.

A cop spokesman, in a press conference shown on CNN yesterday, while
talking
about other subjects, specifically made a point of trying to correct the
versions of this particular story.

His version says 5 guys carrying guns were spotted on the bridge. Police
approached them, and the guys opened fire on the cops at point blank
range.
Cops returned fire and 2 of the perps were known to be dead, others were
hit. He stressed that NEVER were any contractors involved. The cops did
not
shoot at contractors; the perps did not shoot at contractors.

Today there are a few stories around discussing the many versions of this
event, but the cop-spokesman's version does not yet seem to have made it
to
print.

This points out strongly that media no longer collect and report facts.
They report other people's rumours.

The stories I saw claimed to be sourced from both Corps and Police. In this
kind of situation it must be extremely hard to get direct access to the
people involved. It will be interesting to see what the final version is.

Some more commentary along those lines:
http://www.reason.com/links/links090605.shtml

- Rick

Rick wrote:
You mean the gunmen who were shooting at the folks trying to fix the levee?
My brother might be down there helping out (not as a contractor), and if
he's there with someone shooting at him, I hope the police shoot the
shooters first.

Shooting back in self-defense is one thing.

Following the request from the Louisiana Governor[0][1] and "shooting to
kill" is another. What the hell happened to due process? Without due
process, there is no "rule of law".

Maybe the solution would be to completely eliminate all law enforcement of
any kind, which would take care of the problems you're concerned about.

No, the constitution must followed. Looters should be arrested as per
established procedure, read their rights, and tried for the crime that
they are alleged to have committed.

The rule of law cannot exist if the government gives up on due process
and starts "shooting to kill"[0]. The National Guard doesn't have any
authority to go around the constitution -- especially since every member
is sworn to defend the constitution. If the government doesn't hold up
it's end of the constitutional bargain, then this country stands for
nothing.

-Luke


[0]
http://today.reuters.com/investing/f...TRINA-KILL.XML
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/weather_k...kxBHNlYwN0bQ--
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Govern...r_ho_0901.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...9/s1451906.htm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...763266,00.html
http://news.indiainfo.com/2005/09/02...-violence.html


[1] Sorry I mis-attributed the quote. Sounds like a Bushism, but Google
says that it isn't.

Luke Scharf wrote in message ...
Rick wrote:
You mean the gunmen who were shooting at the folks trying to fix the
levee?
My brother might be down there helping out (not as a contractor), and if
he's there with someone shooting at him, I hope the police shoot the
shooters first.

Shooting back in self-defense is one thing.

That's what happened in this case.

Following the request from the Louisiana Governor[0][1] and "shooting to
kill" is another. What the hell happened to due process? Without due
process, there is no "rule of law".

Maybe the solution would be to completely eliminate all law enforcement
of
any kind, which would take care of the problems you're concerned about.

No, the constitution must followed. Looters should be arrested as per
established procedure, read their rights, and tried for the crime that
they are alleged to have committed.

Please document for me that that is not being done.

The rule of law cannot exist if the government gives up on due process
and starts "shooting to kill"[0].

I think that phrase does not mean what you think it means.

The National Guard doesn't have any
authority to go around the constitution

Please document for me that that is being done.

-- especially since every member
is sworn to defend the constitution. If the government doesn't hold up
it's end of the constitutional bargain, then this country stands for
nothing.

-Luke


[0]
http://today.reuters.com/investing/f...ondsNews&story
ID=2005-09-02T030459Z_01_N01575002_RTRIDST_0_WEATHER-KATRINA-KILL.XML
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/weather_k....ZdVotXZctMgMu
86XKs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Govern..._shoot_kill_hu
rricane_survivor_ho_0901.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...9/s1451906.htm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...763266,00.html
http://news.indiainfo.com/2005/09/02...-violence.html


[1] Sorry I mis-attributed the quote. Sounds like a Bushism, but Google
says that it isn't.

No, it doesn't sound like a Bushism, it sounds like a soundbite fragment
that is resounding throughout the echo chamber, unimpeded by context and
background. Do you honestly think that the Guard troops have had no training
in the legalities of the rules of engagement? Do you honestly think that
those rules and the orders issued were designed with no regard for the law
and the constitution? Do you honestly think...actually that's the problem. I
don't believe that you are thinking this through, honestly or not. Maybe you
could do some research on the full statements by the Governor, the orders
issued, and the training that the Guard receives.

I'm glad you're not in charge.

- Rick