will this fly?

Robert Henry wrote:
"Michael" wrote in message
om...


ABS is proven and reliable. However, it
causes people to drive more agressively, thus nulling out the benefit.


While the rest of the post was extremely well constructed, and strikingly
similar to some thoughts I had on the issue (I had images of the ice laden
tangled chute having a terminal velocity exceeding that of the aircraft that
had the effect of pulling the plane tail first into the ground), I have to
point out one nuance of difference on the point quoted.

My experience with ABS is that most people are neither TRAINED properly, nor
do they take the time to understand how it works, to use ABS correctly (when
needed and when not). The situation concerning insurance discounts is not a
function of more aggressive driving, imho. I would further argue that this
is currently the issue facing the chute on the Cirrus - there is no way
(AFAIK) to train on the proper use of the system, both in terms of function
and in the decisionmaking process, that fully demonstrates the experience of
what will occur leading up to deployment and through the outcome to its
inevitable conclusion.

Most drivers aren't trained properly period!


Just as it takes a considerably different mindset for a panicked driver with
ABS to be prepared to steer around an obstruction during an event that
requires maximum braking, and actually do it, it takes a considerably
different mindset for a pilot to abdicate control of the aircraft when all
of the training is oriented toward maintaining and recovering control of the
aircraft. That mindset is a function of training, and until there is a
simulator that can emulate the experience and provide that training, I think
there will be accidents like the one in NY in which the question cannot be
conclusively answered about whether or not the pilot activated the CAPS
system. Of course, it would be nice if the design of the activation system
were able to provide an indication that deployment was attempted.

Why is the mindset different with ABS? You should be trying to steer
around obstacles whether you have ABS or not. The only difference with
ABS is that you don't need to think about modulating the brakes in
addition to thinking about steering.


That said, I will ONLY buy vehicles with ABS, and I really like the Cirrus.

I'd rather have a non ABS vehicle, but they are very hard to find. I
still have both and much prefer my non ABS vehicle, especially in the
snow. I can stop much faster without ABS. On dry pavement, you can
also stop faster if you are proficient at threshold braking. However,
very few people are so I don't doubt that the average driver will stop
faster in an ABS equipped car. Threshold braking takes a lot more skill
than mashing the peddle with all your might! The proficient driver will
stop about as fast on dry pavement and faster on loose surfaces such as
sand and snow. The only advantage I can think of for ABS that can't be
duplicated by driver skill is having one side of the car on pavement and
the other on ice. ABS can modulate the brakes individually on each
wheel. No driver can do that.

On soft surfaces, locked wheels allow you to stop faster, but at the
loss of steering control. However, if all I need to do is stop, then
I'd much rather have the option to lock the wheels. If I need to steer
I can threshold brake and modulate the brakes myself. My only real
close call in the winter was with my new ABS equipped minivan. Didn't
have the option to steer around as the windrows of plowed snow blocked
the berm, and I couldn't lock the wheels to stop faster. I've driven in
the winter for 30 years and I know I could have stopped much faster with
my non ABS vehicle. Luckily, I was going slow enough to stop anyway,
but the ABS raised my blood pressure considerably! It felt as though I
had no brakes at all. With locked wheels, as the snow piles up in front
of the tires, the braking force continually increases.

I like the Cirrus also, at least from what I've seen and read. Never
had the opportunity to fly one yet though...


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Most drivers aren't trained properly period!

Absolutely true. Back before the summer, I had the opportunity to "drive
IFR" through the Cumberland Gap. Road signs were only readable from within
30-50 feet. I was really wishing for a localiser for the lanes and off
ramps. Cars streamed by me at 70-75. I maintained 50 just to keep from
being rear ended. The very next weekend was Memorial Day Weekend; the
weather persisted, and 100 vehicles were wrecked up there and the road was
closed for 24 hours.


Why is the mindset different with ABS? You should be trying to steer
around obstacles whether you have ABS or not.

Simply because steering is impossible if the tires are locked up. The
studies also show most human beings are unable to modulate the brakes
effectively overall. What I think happens is that in no-ABS cars, the
reaction times and stopping distances are enough to overcome the need to
steer - which doesn't matter, because it's nearly impossible unless stopping
distance is sacrificed by the release of brake pressure. Then and only then
is steering possible. In ABS vehicles, the car will always sacrfice distance
for controllability. I submit that if the driver hasn't figured that out,
the mindset is not correct for the equipment.

I've driven in
the winter for 30 years and I know I could have stopped much faster with
my non ABS vehicle.

Going back to my original point, you have much training in using non-ABS
equipped vehicles. My training was in both, and I prefer the ABS - maybe it
was easier to learn, or I didn't have to untrain all the non-ABS experience.
I have been in similar situations in both kinds of cars and I can tell you
the outcome was always better in the ABS equipped vehicle - just luck,
maybe..., but no exaggeration. Of course, I don't change my driving style
based upon the braking equipment either.

I like the Cirrus also, at least from what I've seen and read. Never
had the opportunity to fly one yet though...

I have about 5 hours in an SR-22. All my training was in Cessnas. It was no
transition despite sidestick, low-wing, and high performance. It came
together like bread and butter. Highly recommended. And I didn't change my
flying style based upon the chute or anything else in the airplane. Well, I
didn't have to have anything like a chart or a checklist on my lap for the
entire flight -but they were close at hand.

Bob