Instrument Training at night? Good Idea or not?

wrote:
: I am getting ready to start of Instrument training. I plan on training
: during the day on the weekends and 1 or 2 nights during the week.

: What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
: don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.
: However my goal is to go on to my Commerical and CFI after the
: Instrument.

: I know I will have to get proficient at night flying to teach the
: PPSEL, but not while IFR.

: So, I guess my question comes down to added risk. How much additional
: risk am I taking by doing some of my Instrument at night?

I won't reiterate what others have said regarding night flying and instrument
instructor proficiency. When I got my rating, I was adament about getting some actual
IMC time. I waited for "good bad weather" to do my cross-country training flights
for my instrument training. Something like 800-1000' overcast, stable stratus, no
icing or CB's, and good vis below.

As far as instrument training at night, there are good things and bad things.
The only real bad thing is it may be more difficult to read charts and such over dim
and/or colored cockpit lighting. If you're still still learning the intricacies of
reading IFR charts and plates, that can add a bit of congestion to your already
overloaded head.

On the plus side, lots of the subtle visual cues that you get while wearing
foggles aren't there. The small peripheral vision leaks out the side of the foggles,
the sun changing angles on the instrument panels, etc.... those are pretty much gone
at night. You'll have a more realistic environment to train for true "lack of outside
references."

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:

As far as instrument training at night, there are good things and bad things.
The only real bad thing is it may be more difficult to read charts and such over dim
and/or colored cockpit lighting. If you're still still learning the intricacies of
reading IFR charts and plates, that can add a bit of congestion to your already
overloaded head.

Yes, I started IFR training in the winter of last year and did a lot of
basic manuevers and chartless approaches (talked through it by the
instructor) at night. By the time I was doing aproaches and flying
with charts, it was light at my usual training time. Now that it's
gettting dark earlier, I'm surprised at how hard it is to put together
two things I did well independently (maneuver at night under foggles +
use charts).

On the plus side, lots of the subtle visual cues that you get while wearing
foggles aren't there. The small peripheral vision leaks out the side of the foggles,
the sun changing angles on the instrument panels, etc.... those are pretty much gone
at night. You'll have a more realistic environment to train for true "lack of outside
references."

I disagree with this. When at night under the foggles, when you fly
over towns or cities, the glow from the ground is really noticeable in
your peripherial vision. Because of this I feel like at night I'm
actually getting more visual cues than I should when under the foggles.

IMO the best VFR conditions for hood training are hazy southeastern
afternoons.

On 9/20/2005 12:45, xyzzy wrote:

wrote:

As far as instrument training at night, there are good things and bad things.
The only real bad thing is it may be more difficult to read charts and such over dim
and/or colored cockpit lighting. If you're still still learning the intricacies of
reading IFR charts and plates, that can add a bit of congestion to your already
overloaded head.

Yes, I started IFR training in the winter of last year and did a lot of
basic manuevers and chartless approaches (talked through it by the
instructor) at night. By the time I was doing aproaches and flying
with charts, it was light at my usual training time. Now that it's
gettting dark earlier, I'm surprised at how hard it is to put together
two things I did well independently (maneuver at night under foggles +
use charts).

I too saw this the first time I did a cross county IFR training flight
at night. I had to look at the chart and determine on which bearing
I was from various VORs along the route.

There is a larger work load when having to point a flashlight at the
chart, then at the panel to scan the instruments, then back to the
chart, etc.

It would have been easier if my light had been brighter, but there's
a cost associated with that (in reduced night adaptation).


On the plus side, lots of the subtle visual cues that you get while wearing
foggles aren't there. The small peripheral vision leaks out the side of the foggles,
the sun changing angles on the instrument panels, etc.... those are pretty much gone
at night. You'll have a more realistic environment to train for true "lack of outside
references."

I disagree with this. When at night under the foggles, when you fly
over towns or cities, the glow from the ground is really noticeable in
your peripherial vision. Because of this I feel like at night I'm
actually getting more visual cues than I should when under the foggles.

I agree with this as well. While training, I used to try to ignore all
the visual cues (and was able to get disoriented from time to time) -
flying at night didn't make this any easier... but I was flying over
the valley between Oakland and Sacramento - not the darkest part of
the planet to be sure.



IMO the best VFR conditions for hood training are hazy southeastern
afternoons.


Of course, as others have said - nothing beats actual IMC for giving
you respect for IMC ;-) If any pilot (or prospective pilot) hasn't
experienced it yet, they should grab an instructor and go do it; regardless
of their Instrument Rating aspirations. It will really open your eyes -
Especially if you think "How hard can it be?" ;-)


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

: It would have been easier if my light had been brighter, but there's
: a cost associated with that (in reduced night adaptation).

Just for the record, I have made (IMO) the perfect chart light for night
flying. I took a regular minimag flashlight (2-AA type) and replaced the bulb with a
single green LED. The smaller one (3/4 T or something... don't remember the size
packages of LEDs offhand) is almost the same size as the original light bulb. I had
to rig in a resistor (47 Ohm IIRC) in between the two AA's to limit the current.

Anyway, bottom line is that it's just enough light to read the features of the
chart easily, but not too much to destroy your night vision. Useless as a regular
flashlight, but it's perfect for charts and it'll last almost forever on a single set
of batteries.

: I agree with this as well. While training, I used to try to ignore all
: the visual cues (and was able to get disoriented from time to time) -
: flying at night didn't make this any easier... but I was flying over
: the valley between Oakland and Sacramento - not the darkest part of
: the planet to be sure.

I'm a bit skewed. Here in the mountains southwest Virginia, there aren't all
that many lights. Certainly little "glow from below". You'd have to see the lights
out of your peripheral vision to get references from them. I found daylight shadows
moving (and my fixed-pitch prop loading/unloading the engine) the most irritating
"cheats" to simulated IMC.

:
: IMO the best VFR conditions for hood training are hazy southeastern
: afternoons.
:

: Of course, as others have said - nothing beats actual IMC for giving
: you respect for IMC ;-) If any pilot (or prospective pilot) hasn't
: experienced it yet, they should grab an instructor and go do it; regardless
: of their Instrument Rating aspirations. It will really open your eyes -
: Especially if you think "How hard can it be?" ;-)

Absolutely agree. My instructor had me do actual for some of my instrument
work for my private. It was a nice, February high overcast chilly day... spent about
20 minutes 500' up in a solid overcast (but above MEA for the area). It felt like 20
hours and I never knew I could sweat so quickly. Here I am... probably about 30 hours
total, flying in solid soup using 98% of my brainpower to keep the shiny side up.
Instructor leans over and points at the windshield saying, "See that? That's airframe
ice."
Anyway... enough to instantly instill respect for IMC and icing. Good
experience to have under controlled circumstances so you don't blunder into it
yourself.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in
:


Just for the record, I have made (IMO) the perfect chart light
for night
flying. I took a regular minimag flashlight (2-AA type) and replaced
the bulb with a single green LED. The smaller one (3/4 T or
something... don't remember the size packages of LEDs offhand) is
almost the same size as the original light bulb. I had to rig in a
resistor (47 Ohm IIRC) in between the two AA's to limit the current.

I have a minimag that uses AAA batteries, and put a green LED in it. The
T3 is the right size. I got it from Mouser. I haven't seen the need for
a resistor - it just plugs into the holes for the regular bulb. I wear
it on a lanyard around my neck so I can always find it. But I seldom use
this. I normally use a cheap headlight, which has 2 bright white bulbs
and a single green LED. It came with red, but I changed it out for
green. The white is very useful for preflights and startup, and the
green works well for flying. It always points where I'm looking, and
doesn't blind my FO when I need to read charts and do the company
paperwork. I also carry a regular AA minimag, with a 2 Amp LED bulb and
a diffusion lens, for when I really need light, especially for preflight
walkarounds. White LEDs are great for preflights, because the synthetic
turbine oil in the sightglasses can be hard to see using a weak yellow
incandescent lens. The white LED light makes it show up very well.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

Stan Gosnell wrote:
: I have a minimag that uses AAA batteries, and put a green LED in it. The
: T3 is the right size. I got it from Mouser. I haven't seen the need for
: a resistor - it just plugs into the holes for the regular bulb. I wear
: it on a lanyard around my neck so I can always find it. But I seldom use
: this. I normally use a cheap headlight, which has 2 bright white bulbs
: and a single green LED. It came with red, but I changed it out for
: green. The white is very useful for preflights and startup, and the
: green works well for flying. It always points where I'm looking, and
: doesn't blind my FO when I need to read charts and do the company
: paperwork. I also carry a regular AA minimag, with a 2 Amp LED bulb and
: a diffusion lens, for when I really need light, especially for preflight
: walkarounds. White LEDs are great for preflights, because the synthetic
: turbine oil in the sightglasses can be hard to see using a weak yellow
: incandescent lens. The white LED light makes it show up very well.

I've run LEDs directly from AA's and found that without a bit of current
limiting they tend to damage themselves. Perhaps the AAA has a bit more internal
resistance or the LEDs you chose are a little more resilient or slightly different
material and operating voltage.

In any event, I agree that a headlamp would be nice... haven't rigged one up
yet. Trouble with all the commercial LED lights I've seen is that they're set up to
be like regular flashlights. You know... flood the area with as much light as
possible. That'll wreck any night vision in a heartbeat. The single LED works great
(as you've also found out).

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in
:

I've run LEDs directly from AA's and found that without a bit of
current
limiting they tend to damage themselves. Perhaps the AAA has a bit
more internal resistance or the LEDs you chose are a little more
resilient or slightly different material and operating voltage.

I don't know. I've been using this light for several years with no ill
effects.

In any event, I agree that a headlamp would be nice... haven't
rigged one up
yet. Trouble with all the commercial LED lights I've seen is that
they're set up to be like regular flashlights. You know... flood the
area with as much light as possible. That'll wreck any night vision
in a heartbeat. The single LED works great (as you've also found
out).

The headlight I have offers a choice of 2 focused white LEDs or a single
unfocused, unreflected LED, depending on the switch position. It's bog-
standard, except that it came with a red LED which switched for a green
one. Red light makes reading charts and LCD-based too hard to read for
me. Also, it makes no sense to me to use red light when the instrument
lights are white anyway. The human eye is most sensitive to green light,
so you need less of it to make things visible.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin