Help Our UAL Friends

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Gig 601XL Builder" wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote in message
news:X2AYe.70301$7f5.54144@okepread01...

"John T" wrote in message
...
Montblack wrote:

The company has an obligation to provide benefits and has to fund
the plan to provide for those benefits.

Agreed - however on the back end, not the front end based on outmoded
projections.

Why does the company have an *obligation* to provide benefits?


Because the was the agreement when the employee was hired. If I hired you
and said I would pay you $10.00/hr and then handed you your first week
paycheck and only paid you $9.00/hr how would you feel about that?

I'd feel like telling them to live up to their agreements or I'd take a
walk.

Since only real estate transactions need be in writing, and even dinky
jobs
often have written stipulations (not a formal contract, but a written
statement), in many states that would be a violation of state law. In any
case, why would someone be willing to work for such folks?


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO



And taking a walk is all good and fine if you find out they screwed you over
after a week. But after 20 years just going to work for the competition
isn't going to help you much.

Matt Barrow wrote:

You have a choice. Accept the higher paying job and save for retirement or take
the lower paying job and go for the security. You take the security.

First mistake (actually, first two mistakes).

Well, in 1984, this was regarded as the smart choice, so most people just
leaving school would've made it. At least, they would have if they listened to
their student counselors.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

Unions are there to protect the working class

From what? Themselfs.


Like teachers?


--
Matt

---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...


Look further and you will find a once great airline that was more or
less
taken over by hotel people and run into the ground.
Also notice that huge (then) golden parachute that one CEO got
when they let him go.
Also notice how they raided the IAM employees overfunded
pension fund for cash to buy another hotel chain.
...and on and on and on.

Proctor and Gamble runs airlines and hotel chains?


For Christ sake, the subject is (was) UAL!
Pay attention. But thanks anyway for the good lead in
to something that has had me ****ed for over 20 years.

Pay attention yourself; the issue under discussion is HOW the situation
came about.

From where I stood, right there on the front line, 'HOW' began
when the hotel people saw a cash cow and took over UAL. When
one of the upper hotel types referred to us mechanics as "overpaid
bellhops," it sure didn't help. My neighbor, a service writer for a
car dealership, had a lot more take home pay than I. I suppose
the satisfaction from being able to maintain and certify a DC-10
for a pea soup fog landing at SFO was supposed to cover the
difference. ( In a way, it did. I sure loved that job. )

I imagine a person with this talent could demand quite a good salary. This
person would not need a union he could make more money on his own.

Do you suppose that the overfunded IAM pension fund, if left
to draw intrest, would be in much better shape today instead of
being ripped off to buy the Sheraton Hotels and put into the
shape it is? The ESOP buyout was intended to save an airline
that was on a downward spiral. Too bad it didn't work.
I guess when the U logo morphed into a WI it was too late.

If you can't handle abstractions (that decidedly and distinctive human
characteristic) then start a sub-thread.

PKB You've gone and appointed yourself net-nanny? The thread
that Orval started was practically addressed to me, a 27 yr UAL vet.
I've been glued to it since and only your appropriate post about
home-grown management prompted me to post a comparison to
the airline, almost as old as soap (P&G).
I have no idea why you got that burr under your saddle.

Also, how long has it been since the union owned UAL?

I suppose you mean back when they started giving us ESOP
stock instead of COL payraises. Want to buy mine?
'taint worth much.

"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...


Look further and you will find a once great airline that was more or
less
taken over by hotel people and run into the ground.
Also notice that huge (then) golden parachute that one CEO got
when they let him go.
Also notice how they raided the IAM employees overfunded
pension fund for cash to buy another hotel chain.
...and on and on and on.

Proctor and Gamble runs airlines and hotel chains?


For Christ sake, the subject is (was) UAL!
Pay attention. But thanks anyway for the good lead in
to something that has had me ****ed for over 20 years.

Pay attention yourself; the issue under discussion is HOW the situation
came about.

From where I stood, right there on the front line, 'HOW' began
when the hotel people saw a cash cow and took over UAL. When
one of the upper hotel types referred to us mechanics as "overpaid
bellhops," it sure didn't help. My neighbor, a service writer for a
car dealership, had a lot more take home pay than I. I suppose
the satisfaction from being able to maintain and certify a DC-10
for a pea soup fog landing at SFO was supposed to cover the
difference. ( In a way, it did. I sure loved that job. )

Do you suppose that the overfunded IAM pension fund, if left
to draw intrest, would be in much better shape today instead of
being ripped off to buy the Sheraton Hotels and put into the
shape it is? The ESOP buyout was intended to save an airline
that was on a downward spiral. Too bad it didn't work.
I guess when the U logo morphed into a WI it was too late.

And if left to merely draw interest, rather than invested, they'd wail ...
Oh, forget it!


If you can't handle abstractions (that decidedly and distinctive human
characteristic) then start a sub-thread.

PKB You've gone and appointed yourself net-nanny?

No, just pointing out that you're talking out your ass.


The thread
that Orval started was practically addressed to me, a 27 yr UAL vet.
I've been glued to it since and only your appropriate post about
home-grown management prompted me to post a comparison to
the airline, almost as old as soap (P&G).
I have no idea why you got that burr under your saddle.

Well, maybe because George and I were having a parallel discussion that you
jumped into and tried to hijack.


Also, how long has it been since the union owned UAL?

I suppose you mean back when they started giving us ESOP
stock instead of COL payraises. Want to buy mine?
'taint worth much.

No...(once again) when did the union take over ownership of UAL?

Why I have a burr under my saddle is that you're trying to use only data
that supports your position and thus engaging in numerous logical fallacies.

I can sympathize with your plight of 27 years, but you're evidently far too
busy making excuses for your peers and yourself sitting on their brains and
wanting it "both ways". This is a primary reason so many people have lost an
affinity for unions that shoot themselves in the ass.

Grow up!

"sfb" wrote in message news:P%BYe.4227$yN1.407@trnddc03...
UAL sold off The Hertz Corporation, Westin Hotels, and Hilton
International Hotels in 1988. It is a bit of a stretch to believe that
raiding the United cash cow 17 years ago is the singular cause of the
current fate of United.

A "stretch" is all they have for making childish excuses.



"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
news:WKBYe.68943

From where I stood, right there on the front line, 'HOW' began
when the hotel people saw a cash cow and took over UAL. When
one of the upper hotel types referred to us mechanics as "overpaid
bellhops," it sure didn't help. My neighbor, a service writer for a
car dealership, had a lot more take home pay than I. I suppose
the satisfaction from being able to maintain and certify a DC-10
for a pea soup fog landing at SFO was supposed to cover the
difference. ( In a way, it did. I sure loved that job. )

Do you suppose that the overfunded IAM pension fund, if left
to draw intrest, would be in much better shape today instead of
being ripped off to buy the Sheraton Hotels and put into the
shape it is? The ESOP buyout was intended to save an airline
that was on a downward spiral. Too bad it didn't work.
I guess when the U logo morphed into a WI it was too late.

If you can't handle abstractions (that decidedly and distinctive human
characteristic) then start a sub-thread.

PKB You've gone and appointed yourself net-nanny? The thread
that Orval started was practically addressed to me, a 27 yr UAL vet.
I've been glued to it since and only your appropriate post about
home-grown management prompted me to post a comparison to
the airline, almost as old as soap (P&G).
I have no idea why you got that burr under your saddle.

Also, how long has it been since the union owned UAL?

I suppose you mean back when they started giving us ESOP
stock instead of COL payraises. Want to buy mine?
'taint worth much.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:x5EYe.7645$N35.2320@trndny09...
Matt Barrow wrote:

You have a choice. Accept the higher paying job and save for retirement
or take
the lower paying job and go for the security. You take the security.

First mistake (actually, first two mistakes).

Well, in 1984, this was regarded as the smart choice,

Handling your own finances was de rigure when my wife got into the industry
back in the late 70's.

so most people just leaving school would've made it. At least, they would
have if they listened to their student counselors.

And right there is much of the problem :~(

"Gig 601XL Builder" wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote in message
news:ujDYe.70306$7f5.52421@okepread01...


Because the was the agreement when the employee was hired. If I hired
you
and said I would pay you $10.00/hr and then handed you your first week
paycheck and only paid you $9.00/hr how would you feel about that?

I'd feel like telling them to live up to their agreements or I'd take a
walk.

Since only real estate transactions need be in writing, and even dinky
jobs
often have written stipulations (not a formal contract, but a written
statement), in many states that would be a violation of state law. In any
case, why would someone be willing to work for such folks?


And taking a walk is all good and fine if you find out they screwed you
over after a week. But after 20 years just going to work for the
competition isn't going to help you much.

If it takes you 20 years to figure that out, then you're pretty much
helpless.


--
Matt

---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"sfb" wrote in message news:P%BYe.4227$yN1.407@trnddc03...
UAL sold off The Hertz Corporation, Westin Hotels, and Hilton
International Hotels in 1988. It is a bit of a stretch to believe that
raiding the United cash cow 17 years ago is the singular cause of the
current fate of United.

Aah, yes, it was Hilton instead of Sheraton and somehow, I had
completly forgotton about Hertz. (senior moment? )
Can you imagine why the once proud airline that started in
aircraft like the Ford Trimoter felt it was only along for the ride?

"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
news:WKBYe.68943

From where I stood, right there on the front line, 'HOW' began
when the hotel people saw a cash cow and took over UAL. When
one of the upper hotel types referred to us mechanics as "overpaid
bellhops," it sure didn't help. My neighbor, a service writer for a
car dealership, had a lot more take home pay than I. I suppose
the satisfaction from being able to maintain and certify a DC-10
for a pea soup fog landing at SFO was supposed to cover the
difference. ( In a way, it did. I sure loved that job. )

Do you suppose that the overfunded IAM pension fund, if left
to draw intrest, would be in much better shape today instead of
being ripped off to buy the Sheraton Hotels and put into the
shape it is? The ESOP buyout was intended to save an airline
that was on a downward spiral. Too bad it didn't work.
I guess when the U logo morphed into a WI it was too late.

(snip)

"Aluckyguess" wrote in message
...

"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...


(snip)

From where I stood, right there on the front line, 'HOW' began
when the hotel people saw a cash cow and took over UAL. When
one of the upper hotel types referred to us mechanics as "overpaid
bellhops," it sure didn't help. My neighbor, a service writer for a
car dealership, had a lot more take home pay than I. I suppose
the satisfaction from being able to maintain and certify a DC-10
for a pea soup fog landing at SFO was supposed to cover the
difference. ( In a way, it did. I sure loved that job. )

I imagine a person with this talent could demand quite a good salary. This
person would not need a union he could make more money on his own.

For a reality check on day two you would probably get to
crawl through the inner reaches of some fuel tank to
replace all of the fuel quantity probes.
There was no equiv. non union job available and the cost of
maintaining calibrated test equipment and a supply of approved
servicable spare parts made being a self contractor unrealistic.
There was no choice but hire on with a major airline.
Also, guess whose labor was contracted out to fix the aircraft
of the fly-by-nighter that was cutting your throat in the marketplace. :-)

Do you suppose that the overfunded IAM pension fund, if left
to draw intrest, would be in much better shape today instead of
being ripped off to buy the Sheraton Hotels and put into the
shape it is? The ESOP buyout was intended to save an airline
that was on a downward spiral. Too bad it didn't work.
I guess when the U logo morphed into a WI it was too late.

Oops, Hilton, not Sheraton, sorry.

(snip)