H2 Combustion-Booster Claimed

wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Rapoport wrote:
Water injection does not increase efficiency, it lowers it. The water
goes
in as a liquid and goes out as a gas. The energy to do that comes from
burning fuel.

Same thing is true of a steam engine. In a steam engine it is
the phase-change of the water that makes it possible to convert
the heat from burning fuel into mechanical energy.


Yes but the steam engine takes the high-energy water vapor and produces
mechanical energy while returning the water as a low energy liquid.

Mike

Mike Rapoport wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Rapoport wrote:
Water injection does not increase efficiency, it lowers it. The water
goes
in as a liquid and goes out as a gas. The energy to do that comes from
burning fuel.

Same thing is true of a steam engine. In a steam engine it is
the phase-change of the water that makes it possible to convert
the heat from burning fuel into mechanical energy.


Yes but the steam engine takes the high-energy water vapor and produces
mechanical energy while returning the water as a low energy liquid.


Actually the conversion to mechanical energy ceases before the vapor
condenses. Condensate in a turbine or even a steam piston is
undesireable.

Regarding water-injection of an internal combustion engine
I would assume the water is injected during the intake stroke,
evaporates completely or almost so near TDC and then mechanical
energy is extracted from the water vapor, along with the combustion
products, during the power stroke. One of those combustion
products was already water, so it's not like such an engine
doesn't already extract energy from expanding water vapor.

There is an increase in entropy associated with the phase change.
That energy is irretreiveably lost and probably accounts for
why the water-injected engine is less efficient than a 'dry'
engine despite the improved thermodynamic efficiency resulting
from the higher compression ratio.

But I'm not about to attempt the math. Entropy always make my
brain hurt.

--

FF

wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Rapoport wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Rapoport wrote:
Water injection does not increase efficiency, it lowers it. The water
goes
in as a liquid and goes out as a gas. The energy to do that comes
from
burning fuel.

Same thing is true of a steam engine. In a steam engine it is
the phase-change of the water that makes it possible to convert
the heat from burning fuel into mechanical energy.


Yes but the steam engine takes the high-energy water vapor and produces
mechanical energy while returning the water as a low energy liquid.


Actually the conversion to mechanical energy ceases before the vapor
condenses. Condensate in a turbine or even a steam piston is
undesireable.


Yes and No.

A properly designed condenser produces a partial vacuum which
greatly increases both the power and efficiency of the engine by
allowing the steam to expand much more in the engine

Keith

On 24 Sep 2005 08:10:59 -0700, wrote:

If this thread is true to the subject of H2 boosting, not H2O Or using
some method of cracking water to get Hydrogen it's unlikely it can do
any thing near what is claimed. To get H2 from water takes a lot of
energy. OTOH adding water to hot charcoal will produce a burnable gas
and is a regularly used process.

Surprisingly H2 does not have the flame temperature for which it is
often given credit. Nor does it have a high BTU content per unit
volume. What it does have is a small molecular structure which lets
you put a lot of it through a small tip on a torch providing a clean,
hot, flame with enough BTUs for melting glass and even quartz.

Water vapor in the fuel stream serves two purposes. It lowers the
combustion chamber temperature and it effectively increases the octane
rating of the gas under high compression. Introduced into the inlet
stream it can lower the temperature of the incoming fuel/air mixture
which will allow more mixture into the chamber for a given pressure.

Alcohol which has a low octane rating although it keeps getting credit
for a high one, when added to gas up to 10% by volume will increase
the octane rating of the fuel. 10% seems to be the maximum amount for
increasing the octane rating.

One side effect of water injection is nice clean cylinders and
cylinder heads. Water also adds a lot of weight, without adding much
else.

There really are no magic additives, or fuels that will give
tremendous savings on their own. Most cost far more than normal gas.
Even those who make the claims of tremendous added mileage by adding
battery capacity to a hybrid car are not taking into account all the
added costs including the cost of the electricity.

Some where in the $3.00 to $3.50 range per gallon of gas is the point
where alternative fuels begin to become economically viable
alternatives to non renewable hydrocarbons.

We see all kinds of claims using byproducts from one place or another,
but as soon as enough people use those products they no longer are
thrown away they will be right up there with the other alternative
fuels.

We are most likely going to soon see $3.50 per gallon for a short time
here in the states. That will affect world wide prices which should
only be for a few months depending on how fast refining capacity can
be put back on line.

The scary part is the news tonight was reporting a gas leak out in the
gulf where the lines come together before the gas is brought to shore.
Wait till you see your LP and natural gas bills this winter. Most
commercial electricity is produced by burning natural gas.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Roger" wrote in message
...
On 24 Sep 2005 08:10:59 -0700, wrote:

If this thread is true to the subject of H2 boosting, not H2O

The subject has drifted, it happens.

Or using
some method of cracking water to get Hydrogen it's unlikely it can do
any thing near what is claimed. To get H2 from water takes a lot of
energy. OTOH adding water to hot charcoal will produce a burnable gas
and is a regularly used process.


Well it was back in the days when we made town gas from coke.
The gas produced was of course mainly carbon monoxide
which would modern safety officials a fit.

Surprisingly H2 does not have the flame temperature for which it is
often given credit. Nor does it have a high BTU content per unit
volume. What it does have is a small molecular structure which lets
you put a lot of it through a small tip on a torch providing a clean,
hot, flame with enough BTUs for melting glass and even quartz.

Water vapor in the fuel stream serves two purposes. It lowers the
combustion chamber temperature and it effectively increases the octane
rating of the gas under high compression. Introduced into the inlet
stream it can lower the temperature of the incoming fuel/air mixture
which will allow more mixture into the chamber for a given pressure.


Indeed

Alcohol which has a low octane rating although it keeps getting credit
for a high one, when added to gas up to 10% by volume will increase
the octane rating of the fuel. 10% seems to be the maximum amount for
increasing the octane rating.

One side effect of water injection is nice clean cylinders and
cylinder heads. Water also adds a lot of weight, without adding much
else.

There really are no magic additives, or fuels that will give
tremendous savings on their own.

Well there is one, tetraethyl lead boosts the octane rating
allowing you to use much higher compression ratios.
Of course there certain drawbacks which caused it to
be banned.

Most cost far more than normal gas.
Even those who make the claims of tremendous added mileage by adding
battery capacity to a hybrid car are not taking into account all the
added costs including the cost of the electricity.


Not exactly. Using battery technology allows the IC engine to run only
at its max efficiency setting and allows the use of regenerative braking

Its easily shown that hybrid cars do give better gas mileage

Some where in the $3.00 to $3.50 range per gallon of gas is the point
where alternative fuels begin to become economically viable
alternatives to non renewable hydrocarbons.


They have been well above that level in Europe for at least a decade. The
result has been a large scale switch to more efficient diesel
engines and the proeuction of relatively small amounts of bio-diesel.
Beyond that there have been relatively few such advances.

Current gas prices here in the UK are around $6.8 per gallon

We see all kinds of claims using byproducts from one place or another,
but as soon as enough people use those products they no longer are
thrown away they will be right up there with the other alternative
fuels.

We are most likely going to soon see $3.50 per gallon for a short time
here in the states. That will affect world wide prices which should
only be for a few months depending on how fast refining capacity can
be put back on line.


Dont bet on it. World demand is rising faster than supply, specifically
the Chinese are rapidly building a massive automotive industry
and Chinese demand for oil is rising at around 1 bbpd / year

In 2004 China became the worlds second largest importer of petroleum
products surpassing Japan. That demand is now at approx 40% that of
the USA having risen by 300% since 1990

The scary part is the news tonight was reporting a gas leak out in the
gulf where the lines come together before the gas is brought to shore.
Wait till you see your LP and natural gas bills this winter. Most
commercial electricity is produced by burning natural gas.



Only if you include dual fired units, the stats in 2004 were
(million kilowatts)


Coal 313.3
Oil 36.9
Gas 222.9
Dual Fuel 175.4
Hydro 79
Nuclear 99.6

Electricity production is of course much easier to switch
to non fossil fuels than automotive fuel use but the USA
hasnt built any commercial nuclear plants since the
1980's unlike France which now generates almost 90%
of its electricity from nuclear sources.

Keith

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:39:49 +0100, "Keith W"
wrote:


"Roger" wrote in message
.. .
On 24 Sep 2005 08:10:59 -0700, wrote:

If this thread is true to the subject of H2 boosting, not H2O

The subject has drifted, it happens.
It does? :-))

snip

Well it was back in the days when we made town gas from coke.
The gas produced was of course mainly carbon monoxide
which would modern safety officials a fit.

They also made something similar to natural gas

snip
There really are no magic additives, or fuels that will give
tremendous savings on their own.

Well there is one, tetraethyl lead boosts the octane rating
allowing you to use much higher compression ratios.

True it indirectly contributes by raising the octane rating which
allows for much higher combustion ratios. Gone are the days of gas
engines with 11:1 compression ratios.

Of course there certain drawbacks which caused it to
be banned.

Not just the lead. The higher compression had a tendency to create a
lot of nitrides.


Most cost far more than normal gas.
Even those who make the claims of tremendous added mileage by adding
battery capacity to a hybrid car are not taking into account all the
added costs including the cost of the electricity.


Not exactly. Using battery technology allows the IC engine to run only
at its max efficiency setting and allows the use of regenerative braking
Its easily shown that hybrid cars do give better gas mileage

That wasn't quite where I was headed. I agree the hybrid can get much
better mileage than a conventional car although it's at its best in
city driving.

Where I was headed was those adding more batteries to the hybrid and
then charging them from the electrical mains. Although at first it
looks like they are creating tremendous savings, it really a very
expensive proposition and we haven't reached the point where disposing
or remanufacturing the NiMH batteries has become a problem.

Although the technology could allow the gas engine to run at max
efficiency that isn't necessarily the case so there is still room for
improvement. Yes, the motor/generator (wheel motor) is where the car
gets most of its efficiency and also why it does its best in city
driving.

I'm wondering if may have noticed the similarity between the auto
industry now and the auto industry back in the 70s after the gas
shortage. The US auto industry was hurting as they were still geared
up to produce cars that were part of the horse power race and consumer
purchasing habits had shifted to imported economy cars. It appears, at
least to me, to be much the same at present.

We conserved, gas became cheap, and within a few years we were back to
larger cars. However some pretty big strides were made in gas mileage.
I drive an SUV that gets better mileage than the 4 cylinder cars I
drove back in the late 80s and early 90s. but gas mileage has actually
dropped slightly on average over the last 5 years or so.




Some where in the $3.00 to $3.50 range per gallon of gas is the point
where alternative fuels begin to become economically viable
alternatives to non renewable hydrocarbons.


They have been well above that level in Europe for at least a decade. The
result has been a large scale switch to more efficient diesel
engines and the proeuction of relatively small amounts of bio-diesel.
Beyond that there have been relatively few such advances.

And you have much quieter, smoother running, and cleaner diesel
engines than we do here. Most of ours sound like a bad case of spark
knock or a loose rod. :-))


Current gas prices here in the UK are around $6.8 per gallon

We see all kinds of claims using byproducts from one place or another,
but as soon as enough people use those products they no longer are
thrown away they will be right up there with the other alternative
fuels.

We are most likely going to soon see $3.50 per gallon for a short time
here in the states. That will affect world wide prices which should
only be for a few months depending on how fast refining capacity can
be put back on line.


Dont bet on it. World demand is rising faster than supply, specifically
the Chinese are rapidly building a massive automotive industry
and Chinese demand for oil is rising at around 1 bbpd / year

In 2004 China became the worlds second largest importer of petroleum
products surpassing Japan. That demand is now at approx 40% that of
the USA having risen by 300% since 1990

True, but due to price controls they are exporting refined gas as they
can sell it for more than they can at home.

I'd answer more but there's a thunderstorm right outside ... :-))
Later.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

The scary part is the news tonight was reporting a gas leak out in the
gulf where the lines come together before the gas is brought to shore.
Wait till you see your LP and natural gas bills this winter. Most
commercial electricity is produced by burning natural gas.



Only if you include dual fired units, the stats in 2004 were
(million kilowatts)


Coal 313.3
Oil 36.9
Gas 222.9
Dual Fuel 175.4
Hydro 79
Nuclear 99.6

Electricity production is of course much easier to switch
to non fossil fuels than automotive fuel use but the USA
hasnt built any commercial nuclear plants since the
1980's unlike France which now generates almost 90%
of its electricity from nuclear sources.

Keith

"Roger" wrote

The scary part is the news tonight was reporting a gas leak out in the
gulf where the lines come together before the gas is brought to shore.
Wait till you see your LP and natural gas bills this winter. Most
commercial electricity is produced by burning natural gas.

I heard this, but only as a quick blurb.

What is said to have caused this leak? My guess (if someone had a gun to my
head forcing me to speculate) would be a dragging "super anchor" from a
floating oil platform.
--
Jim in NC

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 05:27:54 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Roger" wrote

The scary part is the news tonight was reporting a gas leak out in the
gulf where the lines come together before the gas is brought to shore.
Wait till you see your LP and natural gas bills this winter. Most
commercial electricity is produced by burning natural gas.

I heard this, but only as a quick blurb.

What is said to have caused this leak? My guess (if someone had a gun to my
head forcing me to speculate) would be a dragging "super anchor" from a
floating oil platform.

Sorry for the interruption/incomplete answer earlier. The
thunderstorm is long past. Actually a whole bunch have passed with a
whole bunch more coming through. I lost power 3 or 4 times
momentarily, but the computers kept right on chugging along complete
with UPS alarms sounding.

Last I heard they didn't say any thing about the cause, or even any
speculation. News was they were going to go out today and have a
look. I don't know just how deep the gulf is at the Henry Hub
location. I'd not expect the hurricane to disturbe the waters that
deep, but then again there may be surface structures in the vicinity
or something may have dragged across, or one of the pipes may have
been "pulled". A lot of stuff seems to have done a bit of moving
around out there.

I stand corrected on the % of coal Vs Gas generated electricity.
That's what I get for using the news:-))

I saw another blurb that listed projected increases as 12% for
electricity, I think it was in the 30% range for fuel oil, and in the
high 70% range for natural gas. The analysts seemed to be breathing a
sigh of relief even with those figures.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Roger" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 05:27:54 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Roger" wrote

The scary part is the news tonight was reporting a gas leak out in the
gulf where the lines come together before the gas is brought to shore.
Wait till you see your LP and natural gas bills this winter. Most
commercial electricity is produced by burning natural gas.

I heard this, but only as a quick blurb.

What is said to have caused this leak? My guess (if someone had a gun to
my
head forcing me to speculate) would be a dragging "super anchor" from a
floating oil platform.

Sorry for the interruption/incomplete answer earlier. The
thunderstorm is long past. Actually a whole bunch have passed with a
whole bunch more coming through. I lost power 3 or 4 times
momentarily, but the computers kept right on chugging along complete
with UPS alarms sounding.

Last I heard they didn't say any thing about the cause, or even any
speculation. News was they were going to go out today and have a
look. I don't know just how deep the gulf is at the Henry Hub
location. I'd not expect the hurricane to disturbe the waters that
deep, but then again there may be surface structures in the vicinity
or something may have dragged across, or one of the pipes may have
been "pulled". A lot of stuff seems to have done a bit of moving
around out there.

Given the two opposing movements produced by a hurricane and the shallow
water in which the "Henry Hub" is likely to be located, far less than 100
fathoms, I'd guess early on that the amount of movement caused by the
initial outflow of water toward the storm, followed by the surge, are likely
to have exceeded the limits of one of more of the flexible couplings
attaching the collectors (or the shore line) to the hub. One problem is
that the waters are filled with stirred up sediment and sand and will take a
while to clear for suitable diving conditions - They are never very clear. -
and the second, pre-dive if possible, isolating the line(s) the coupling(s)
of which is/are leaking and shutting off the flow of gas. I'm sure the
structure has a valving system installed which prevents cross and back
flows.

The natural gas price issue is less clear than the superficial reaction
makes it out to be....

I own a small interest in a gas producing property, itself a few wells which
share production from a single underground "pool" of natural gas under
pressure. This production is generally sold under contract, in our case to
Phillips which owns the nearby pipeline which collects the gas. When the
price jumps as it has and will this winter, our earnings will be dependent
on the terms (and the time) that have been negotiated for the gas. Would
that there were no contract, today, for I'd get fat and happy quicker. The
result, gas burned to make electricity or piped to home or industry, which
has been purchased at several different prices. Overall, I expect natural
gas's "overall" price increase to be in the 30-35% range this Winter.

......But have I got a deal for you (or for me, really). Over on the edge of
East Texas, I own what is now a 1/25 interest in the "Mineral Rights" to 532
acres+/- in the 1911 survey (actually now 540 acress by the survey when the
"land" - surface rights - was recently sold). 15,000 feet (and $3-5,000,000
worth of drilling) beneath the surface is natural gas, by all evidence and
indication in production quantities (which means that a dry hole is
possible, but that the risk is acceptable). If a production company knocks
on the door ready to drill (and willing to pay an acceptable percentage),
the potential value of the gas, all "new" and ready to be sold at today's
spot market prices, 2 or 3 times that of old gas, is substantial. The poor
*******s buying "country places" and "ranchettes" up top have no say in the
matter and would only receive token payments and compensation for a drilling
rig in their backyards or a "Christmas Tree" next to the car port. As for
me, I'sd be planning vacations, long vacations, permanent unemployment and
relaxed retirement.



I stand corrected on the % of coal Vs Gas generated electricity.
That's what I get for using the news:-))

I saw another blurb that listed projected increases as 12% for
electricity, I think it was in the 30% range for fuel oil, and in the
high 70% range for natural gas. The analysts seemed to be breathing a
sigh of relief even with those figures.




TMO

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:52:08 GMT, "TOliver"
wrote:


"Roger" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 05:27:54 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Roger" wrote

I am one of the very few, to the consternation of the drilling company
doing the leasing, who refused to lease the mineral rights on our
farm. It is one of very few parcels of land in central Michigan not
under contract.

Not far from here are some of the highest head pressures you can find.
Unfortunately the gas is very deep and although there are a *few* new
wells, most have been capped. They are not dry holes.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com