Battery Source

Hi David,

You crack me up.

I highly recommend 12V systems in gliders. You can save yourself a lot of
money and hassle by using 12V batteries.

The design of radios has changed a lot in recent years. Good radios don't
require 14V batteries. Low cost and old radios do prefer 14V power.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

"David Kinsell" wrote in message
...
Mike the Strike wrote:
Thanks for all the suggestions. Actually, I've used 12-volt batteries
in all my gliders and never had a problem. This 12/14 V argument is
really unnecessary! Good German instruments like the Becker and Dittel
radios are quite happy with a 12-volt supply.

Happy?? With a fresh battery, they work for a while, but die after only
part of the rated capacity is used up. Understanding such a complex
issue is way beyond the comprehension of most glider pilots, apparently.

If your current batteries were working so well, I don't suppose you'd be
needing to add yet another one. Seems like the people who run 12 volts
are the ones always looking to find somewhere to cram more batteries
into their glider. Gee, I wonder why??

Paul Remde wrote:
Hi David,

I highly recommend 12V systems in gliders. You can save yourself a lot of
money and hassle by using 12V batteries.

The design of radios has changed a lot in recent years. Good radios don't
require 14V batteries. Low cost and old radios do prefer 14V power.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde


Mike et. al.

I used to be a "14 volter", using the old Gates Cells and later Sealed
Lead Acid. My new ship has all modern electronics (LNav, GPSNav,
Becker), and I have absolutely no issues running 12 Volts. I've
primarily used the Powersonic PSH-12100 (12V, 12AH) with good success.
I can easily get in a full weekend of flying (8-10hrs) on a single
charge. With reasonable care (storing in a cool, dry environment,
recharging after flying), they seem to last about 3-4 seasons (probably
about 150-200 cycles with my flying schedule). If you look at the
discharge charts, there's not a huge difference in useful time at our
typical discharge rates (on average less than 1 amp draw) between the
12AH and 10AH models, but it's only a couple of bucks more to buy the
higher capacity battery.

None of which, I guess, answers your original question.... The largest
capacity Powersonic that fits your specs is the PS-1229, which is only
2.9AH and 2.2lbs. Sufficient as a "get home" backup if you turn off
the radio but not what you'd want to run for a whole day of flying.
Also, in this case, there is some need to consider voltage drop across
the long wire you will have running back to the tail. You can make up
a 14 Volt kit by attaching an additional 2V 6AH cell that they have,
though in general they recommend matching the load ratings more
closely.

P3

Paul Remde wrote:
Hi David,

You crack me up.

I highly recommend 12V systems in gliders. You can save yourself a lot of
money and hassle by using 12V batteries.

You want me to be like Mike/Strike and put in multiple 12 volt batteries
in hopes of getting enough juice to run a panel? After a while, he'll
figure out that switching batteries glitches his FR, computer, and radio,
so he starts throwing in the monster capacitors, the power Shottkies,
the microprocessor-controlled reed relays, and all the other garbage people
use to try to get around the problems. Seems like when people try to be
cheap and lazy, it ends up costing them time and money in the long run.
It's one of those false economies type of things.

My little 14 volt tail battery (singular) powers the panel just fine even
after being cold-soaked at 18 grand for 5 hours. In fact, at the end of
the flight, it delivers more juice to the panel than people flying around
with 20 A-H of batteries have at take off. Been running a FR for about
six years, and haven't had a single glitch in the data in all that time.
If you have some actual information about why running undervoltage batteries
is such a great idea, I'd like to hear it, but you really haven't offered
anything but personal opinion with no facts to back it up.


The design of radios has changed a lot in recent years. Good radios don't
require 14V batteries. Low cost and old radios do prefer 14V power.


Really? You need to immediately contact the German manufacturers and share
your revelations with them. Since you know more about the radios than they
do, they'll be happy to correct all the wrong information in their manuals.
If you should happen to actually read the manuals, you'll see they all
have nominal input voltages of 13.8 volts, just like always, but since
you're so much smarter than they are, you can rewrite the manuals for them.
Obviously, they all have no idea what they're talking about, since they're
only the ones who designed the radios.

Dave

I'm flying with a 12V/12Ah battery with a full panel (calculator, radio,
Colibri, Ipaq, FLARM), and after 10h of operation the battery shows still
12.4V with the radio transmitting.

So what exactly do you need the 14V for?

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"David Kinsell" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Paul Remde wrote:
Hi David,

You crack me up.

I highly recommend 12V systems in gliders. You can save yourself a lot of
money and hassle by using 12V batteries.

You want me to be like Mike/Strike and put in multiple 12 volt batteries
in hopes of getting enough juice to run a panel? After a while, he'll
figure out that switching batteries glitches his FR, computer, and radio,
so he starts throwing in the monster capacitors, the power Shottkies,
the microprocessor-controlled reed relays, and all the other garbage
people
use to try to get around the problems. Seems like when people try to be
cheap and lazy, it ends up costing them time and money in the long run.
It's one of those false economies type of things.

My little 14 volt tail battery (singular) powers the panel just fine even
after being cold-soaked at 18 grand for 5 hours. In fact, at the end of
the flight, it delivers more juice to the panel than people flying around
with 20 A-H of batteries have at take off. Been running a FR for about
six years, and haven't had a single glitch in the data in all that time.
If you have some actual information about why running undervoltage
batteries
is such a great idea, I'd like to hear it, but you really haven't offered
anything but personal opinion with no facts to back it up.


The design of radios has changed a lot in recent years. Good radios
don't require 14V batteries. Low cost and old radios do prefer 14V
power.


Really? You need to immediately contact the German manufacturers and
share
your revelations with them. Since you know more about the radios than
they
do, they'll be happy to correct all the wrong information in their
manuals.
If you should happen to actually read the manuals, you'll see they all
have nominal input voltages of 13.8 volts, just like always, but since
you're so much smarter than they are, you can rewrite the manuals for
them.
Obviously, they all have no idea what they're talking about, since they're
only the ones who designed the radios.

Dave

"David Kinsell" wrote in message
...
Paul Remde wrote:
Hi David,

You crack me up.

I highly recommend 12V systems in gliders. You can save yourself a lot of
money and hassle by using 12V batteries.

You want me to be like Mike/Strike and put in multiple 12 volt batteries
in hopes of getting enough juice to run a panel? After a while, he'll
figure out that switching batteries glitches his FR, computer, and radio,
so he starts throwing in the monster capacitors, the power Shottkies,
the microprocessor-controlled reed relays, and all the other garbage
people
use to try to get around the problems. Seems like when people try to be
cheap and lazy, it ends up costing them time and money in the long run.
It's one of those false economies type of things.

My little 14 volt tail battery (singular) powers the panel just fine even
after being cold-soaked at 18 grand for 5 hours. In fact, at the end of
the flight, it delivers more juice to the panel than people flying around
with 20 A-H of batteries have at take off. Been running a FR for about
six years, and haven't had a single glitch in the data in all that time.
If you have some actual information about why running undervoltage
batteries
is such a great idea, I'd like to hear it, but you really haven't offered
anything but personal opinion with no facts to back it up.


The design of radios has changed a lot in recent years. Good radios
don't require 14V batteries. Low cost and old radios do prefer 14V
power.


Really? You need to immediately contact the German manufacturers and
share
your revelations with them. Since you know more about the radios than
they
do, they'll be happy to correct all the wrong information in their
manuals.
If you should happen to actually read the manuals, you'll see they all
have nominal input voltages of 13.8 volts, just like always, but since
you're so much smarter than they are, you can rewrite the manuals for
them.
Obviously, they all have no idea what they're talking about, since they're
only the ones who designed the radios.

Dave



I don't have a manual for my Becker AR3201 so I had a look on the
manufacturer's website for the current equivalent model and found this:

http://www.becker-avionics.com/product/files/ar4201.pdf

The top of page 2 states:
Supply Voltage: 12.4 - 15.1 V
Emergency Supply Voltage: 10.0 V

I am now confused ! Please can you explain what you mean by nominal input
voltage - is that the average of the maximum and the minimum ? Any idea
what is meant by Emergency Supply Voltage?

Regards,
John Wilton

Hi David,

I think your observations are interesting.

One part that is interesting is that you talk about how so many pilots that
use 12V systems are having problems. I have heard from both 12V and 14V
advocates that have problems with their batteries. Like you, I have never
had any problems with my batteries. I use 12V batteries.

I think that the majority of "battery problems" are owner induced. It is
difficult to remember when you purchased a battery. Most people naturally
underestimate the age of their batteries. I think many pilots are flying
with old batteries that have not been cared for and then they complain about
them.

I take care of my batteries. I don't let them sit for more than 3 months
without recharging, I charge them before flying, I replace them every 2
years. Every time I get a new battery I put the date on it so that I will
know when to replace it. I don't want a battery failure during a record
flight or contest flight - or any flight for that matter.

I stock a lot of Power-Sonic batteries for sale to glider pilots. My
calendar reminds me to charge them every 3 months so they will not be
damaged.

Many pilots fly with 12V systems and we really are very happy with them.
People can hear our radio transmissions from very far away and we are heard
clearly. People who take care of their 14V systems will also have good
results. They may truly have a few more watts of transmit power. To me the
issues involved with 14V systems are not worth the extra small percentage of
transmit power. Many glider pilots agree with me that 12V systems are
great. Many glider pilots prefer 14V systems. I think it will always be
that way.

Issues with 14V systems.
- Most glider battery compartments are designed to hold 12V batteries so it
is difficult to secure a 14V battery well. Radio manufacturers make
extremely rugged and easy to use battery boxes for 12V batteries, but 14V
batteries don't fit into them.
- It is difficult to match 12V and 2V batteries well so that they charge
equally. I have tried running 14V systems in my gliders in the past. I
found that the 2V battery was completely dead at the end of every soaring
season. That is the main reason I switched to 12V systems.
- 14V chargers are more difficult to find and more expensive. After you
invest in one and later come to the conclusions that many of us have (that
12V systems are fine) you will throw away your expensive 14V charger and
invest in a 12V charger.

I find your comment about German radio manufacturers to be funny. They all
sell 12V batteries and battery boxes. So they are endorsing the use of 12V
batteries. They must agree with me (and many other glider pilots) that 12V
systems are acceptable and, dare I say it... preferable.

Uh Oh... I just top posted! (my preference)

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde


"David Kinsell" wrote in message
...
Paul Remde wrote:
Hi David,

You crack me up.

I highly recommend 12V systems in gliders. You can save yourself a lot of
money and hassle by using 12V batteries.

You want me to be like Mike/Strike and put in multiple 12 volt batteries
in hopes of getting enough juice to run a panel? After a while, he'll
figure out that switching batteries glitches his FR, computer, and radio,
so he starts throwing in the monster capacitors, the power Shottkies,
the microprocessor-controlled reed relays, and all the other garbage
people
use to try to get around the problems. Seems like when people try to be
cheap and lazy, it ends up costing them time and money in the long run.
It's one of those false economies type of things.

My little 14 volt tail battery (singular) powers the panel just fine even
after being cold-soaked at 18 grand for 5 hours. In fact, at the end of
the flight, it delivers more juice to the panel than people flying around
with 20 A-H of batteries have at take off. Been running a FR for about
six years, and haven't had a single glitch in the data in all that time.
If you have some actual information about why running undervoltage
batteries
is such a great idea, I'd like to hear it, but you really haven't offered
anything but personal opinion with no facts to back it up.


The design of radios has changed a lot in recent years. Good radios
don't require 14V batteries. Low cost and old radios do prefer 14V
power.


Really? You need to immediately contact the German manufacturers and
share
your revelations with them. Since you know more about the radios than
they
do, they'll be happy to correct all the wrong information in their
manuals.
If you should happen to actually read the manuals, you'll see they all
have nominal input voltages of 13.8 volts, just like always, but since
you're so much smarter than they are, you can rewrite the manuals for
them.
Obviously, they all have no idea what they're talking about, since they're
only the ones who designed the radios.

Dave