Landing with one spoiler

5Z wrote:
What I'm trying to say is that a one spoiler landing is, to me, a total
non event. But to some is has turned into a fatality. Why is that?

Well, there is one obvious possibility, not all gliders will necessarily
behave the same way with asymmetric spoiler deployment. For example,
the spoilers on my LAK-17 are relatively small and close to the fuselage
(to the point where full spoiler deployment causes noticeable buffeting
on the tail), whereas the spoilers on my DGs were larger and farther
outboard. My guess is that roll forces from a single deployed spoiler
would be larger on a DG...

Mark Dickson wrote:

When I say airbrakeless landing practice is not necessary
I mean actually landing. Practising sideslipping approaches
followed by use of airbrakes/spoilers for landing is
a good idea.

I agree with the above.

I wouldn't, and don't, practice skids
in car parks. When you screw it up and trash your
car and someone elses you'll look much sillier than
if you screwed up for real; same goes for landing without
airbrakes.

Yikes! A fender-bender in a parking lot doesn't seem as silly to me as a
rollover on a highway. I do practice bad weather driving skills in safe
areas so I don't end up in the accidents that many of our townspeople
participate in every winter. Cars have changed considerably since I
first learned to drive, and what I learned then isn't alway appropriate
now - think about anti-lock braking systems, for example.

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

I think you are missing the point of my post; which
was that the emphasis should be on ensuring that pilots
follow correct, basic routines such as DIs and preflight
checks, rather than on teaching how to land without
airbrakes. Prevent the cause. Maybe, obviously I
don't know, but maybe there were supervisory issues
that needed to be addressed. After all, a pilot managed
to bring his glider to the launch point and be launched
without any checks being done and his airbrakes taped
shut. Nobody noticed the lack of airbrake checks prior
to acceptance of the rope/cable, and nobody noticed
the tape over the airbrakes. Teaching rope breaks
and winch launch failures is normal enough and I would
never suggest it is unnecessary. Teaching landings
without use of airbrakes is unnecessary and possibly
risky. Being able to competently side slip is worth
mastering. Jump down off that high horse and stop
over-reacting.

First you wanted to blame this pilots problem on skimpy training.
Now you want to blame it on the wing runner, tow pilot or anyone
else who may have been in the area. Believe it or not, it is the
sole responsibility of the PIC to assure that his glider is ready for
flight. If you can't accept that then you should do us all a favor
and take up bird watching.

Next your attitude that no spoiler landings thru touchdown are risky,
is probably more a reflection of your skills and or training, rather
than a good basic understanding of the task. Although it may be
that you just have a misunderstanding of the difference between a
simulated spoiler failure and an actual spoiler failure. First let's
assume you were smart enough to find a competent instructor who
was proficient with this maneuver. If you have, then there will be no
real risk (provided of course that you can either follow instructions
or at least not fight him for the controls if you are just totally inept).
The instructor's job is to assure that you don't touch down with any
significant yaw and that you abort the task and use spoilers if your
using up an excessive amount of runway. Maybe you could explain
what sounds so risky about this?

For the other poster who implies that it is madness, and of course it
can't be done in an open class ship. We train with ASK-21's and
G-103's, both of which will touch down and stop in about 1400 ft
without any wheel brake. In case you don't understand why no brake,
in an ASK or Grobe the wheel brake is on the spoiler handle, so no
spoiler no wheel brake. And yes I have routinely landed a Janus and
a Duo Discus without spoilers. You might be surprised to know that
they will stop quicker than the K-21, because the wheel brake is not
on the spoiler handle.

The real madness in our sport is our accident rate. There should be
little argument that this is a direct reflection of the minimal skills
most pilots accept as adequate.

So keep up the standards by finding some good old boy to do your
next BFR with. And don't forget to remind him that a 1 hour soaring
flight and normal landing will be fine with you.

M Eiler

At 19:54 28 September 2005, 5z wrote:

Ray Hart wrote:
Having taught your pupils how to get away with this
kind of madness in
what must be a very low performance, incredibly stable/forgiving
two
seater on a huge airfield, do you then brief them
to...

Ray, the whole point here is to show the person that
stuff like this
can be done safely in any type glider. Marty trains
in ASK-21 and I
currently only have access to L-23. But I personally
fly a number of
high performance ships, currently ans ASH-26E and would
have no
problem
trying any of these manouvers in that ship.

What I'm trying to say is that a one spoiler landing
is, to me, a total
non event. But to some is has turned into a fatality.
Why is that?

-Tom

But is that true? One question I mooted had to do
with the effects of
asymetry on a range odd types, especially older, larger
span gliders;
Kestrel19, Jaunus etc. Loss of rudder on a Kestrel
has proved fatal on a
number of occasions, loss of an aileron likewise in
Nimbus 2s, full rudder
deflection on a Janus has to be experienced (but only
at a safe height -
not on final approach). One inevitable problem is
that pilots who die can
not be interviewed to find out what happened, although
they probably
wouldn't know anyway.. I'm still unsure that 'training'
for these events
would prevent more accidents, although the amount of
training prangs
would undoubtedly increase. According to your statistics,
what
proportion of glider accidents have an instructor on
board? If you don't
know, then a little research might be illuminating.

Ray

In article .com,
"5Z" wrote:

Pess full rudder one direction before pattern entry to simulate a
rudder cable failure. I suggest releasing the rudder once the
applicant is lined up with the runway as a landing with full rudder is
not good for the glider.

Um ... on the glider I fly most often (original Janus) that results in
the opposite wing pointing almost exactly in the direction in which you
are travelling, a rather high rate of descent, and then loss of elevator
control which in (in my experience at least) then results in a
relatively slow but totally uncontrollable 30 or 40 degree pitch down.
And that's the point, I'm afraid, at which I put the rudder back in the
middle.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

My! In the DG-300 it is impossible to misrig the flaps.
So far I've never seen a flapped -300...
On the other hand, it's impossible to misrig an automatic hookup bird. If
the wings are in place, the controls are ok. You can forget to screw the
tail in place, as in the ASW-24, but it is not possible to leave the
ailerons/spoilers unconected.

"Andreas Maurer" escribió en el mensaje
...
On 21 Sep 2005 21:16:29 -0700, "Andy" wrote:

You did better than a very experienced local club member who had the
same problem many years ago in a DG300. He had one air brake open on
tow, released early instead of gaining altitude and time, misjudged the
approach and rolled it up in a ball.

Hmmm... the DG-300 has fully automatic control hookups for the flaps.
How could that happen?


Bye
Andreas

Ray Hart wrote:

What I'm trying to say is that a one spoiler landing
is, to me, a total
non event. But to some is has turned into a fatality.
Why is that?

-Tom


But is that true?

Any glider can suffer partial control failure from connection problems,
freezing, stick or linkage blockage, undetected damage, mechanical
failures, or improper repairs. I think giving pilots some experience in
these situations with an experienced instructor would be an asset.
Besides the actual skills it might impart, it would make them less
likely to panic in a partial control failure situation. The poster that
thought crashing might be inevitable, even on a Mojave desert sized
airport, comes to mind.

One question I mooted had to do with the effects
of asymetry on a range odd types, especially older, larger span
gliders; Kestrel19, Jaunus etc. Loss of rudder on a Kestrel has
proved fatal on a number of occasions, loss of an aileron likewise in
Nimbus 2s, full rudder deflection on a Janus has to be experienced
(but only at a safe height - not on final approach).

From what you say, it sounds like pilots of these gliders are in
particular need of "partial control" training. Instead of avoiding any
training of this type just because some gliders are troublesome, I think
instructors should be encouraged to provide it because most gliders
_aren't_ like the few you mention. And regardless of the type of glider
a pilot is transitioning to, he should seek out a good briefing on it's
operation, and even take additional training if the glider's quirks
exceed his abilities.


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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

In a low performance glider I don't have any experience. In a glass glider a
no brakes landing is dicey as hell.
You just enter ground effect and fly forever. With a long runway it's not
much of a problem but the landing takes lots of space... If you have short
runway or an obstacle requiring a stepper approach path, it's a recipe for
an extended trip to the repair shop.

"5Z" escribió en el mensaje
oups.com...

Ray Hart wrote:

landing, just in case. I wouldn't recommend practising
no-brake landings
though.

This is another thread, but a no spoiler approach is one of the
simplest "advanced" manouvers out there. I only have access to a L-23
and tried this a few months back. I was able to use about as much
runway as the typical normal landing made by others. Spot touchdown
was a bit dicey, but I always got stopped where I had planned.


Gotta give it a try in the ASH-26E sometime. Should I "cheat" and use
landing flap, or give it a shot in thermalling flap?
-Tom

Bruce Hoult wrote:

In article .com,
"5Z" wrote:


Pess full rudder one direction before pattern entry to simulate a
rudder cable failure. I suggest releasing the rudder once the
applicant is lined up with the runway as a landing with full rudder is
not good for the glider.


Um ... on the glider I fly most often (original Janus) that results in
the opposite wing pointing almost exactly in the direction in which you
are travelling, a rather high rate of descent, and then loss of elevator
control which in (in my experience at least) then results in a
relatively slow but totally uncontrollable 30 or 40 degree pitch down.
And that's the point, I'm afraid, at which I put the rudder back in the
middle.

So, do you avoid slipping your Janus, or is it just something that must
be done with extra care compared to most gliders? I assume this behavior
is demonstrated to transitioning pilots.


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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

J.A.M. wrote:

My! In the DG-300 it is impossible to misrig the flaps.
So far I've never seen a flapped -300...
On the other hand, it's impossible to misrig an automatic hookup bird.

There are a few older gliders where this is possible.

If
the wings are in place, the controls are ok. You can forget to screw the
tail in place, as in the ASW-24,

Schleicher has a simple retrofit (for many of their gliders - not just
the 24) that keeps the tail bolt with the elevator and reduces the
chance of this happening. It's worth doing.

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA