Change in AIM wording concerning procedure turn

On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 22:41:08 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
.. .

If a procedure turn is charted, then it is required unless one of the
previously discussed exceptions apply (e.g. NoPT; vectors to final; timed
approaches).


Where in the FARs did you find that requirement?

To elaborate, it is in the Jepp interpretation of the FAA published
approach procedure. These procedures are regulatory by virtue of 14 CFR 97
and must be followed by virtue of 14 CFR 91




I believe the determination of "course reversal required" is to be made by
the procedure designer, and not the pilot.


Why?


Because the requirement is noted in TERPS which is used to design the
approach.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

To elaborate, it is in the Jepp interpretation of the FAA published
approach procedure. These procedures are regulatory by virtue of 14 CFR
97
and must be followed by virtue of 14 CFR 91


Then it appears that Jepp misinterpreted.



Because the requirement is noted in TERPS which is used to design the
approach.


The TERPs requirements apply only to the design of the procedure.

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 00:35:29 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
.. .

To elaborate, it is in the Jepp interpretation of the FAA published
approach procedure. These procedures are regulatory by virtue of 14 CFR
97
and must be followed by virtue of 14 CFR 91


Then it appears that Jepp misinterpreted.

Since 14 CFR 97 states that the SIAP's are included by reference, it would
seem that the regulatory nature of these SIAP's is pretty clear.





Because the requirement is noted in TERPS which is used to design the
approach.


The TERPs requirements apply only to the design of the procedure.

And the procedures based on TERPs are regulatory.



Steve,

Myself, Jepp, as well as FAA published legal opinion all agree that a PT
must be flown if the pilot is cleared for a SIAP which includes a PT, and
for which one of the 91.175 exceptions is not present.

SIAP's ARE regulatory. They are included, by reference, in 14 CFR 97.

It is certainly your right to disagree with Jeppesen's interpretation, and
with the FAA Assistant Chief Counsel Regulatory Division's interpretation.

Myself, I will choose to rely on their opinions, and encourage others to do
the same.

==========================================
Nov. 28, 1994
Mr. Tom Young, Chairman
Charting and Instrument Procedures Committee
Air Line Pilots Association
535 Herndon Parkway
Herndon, VA 22070

Dear Mr. Young,

.... A SIAP may or may not prescribe a procedure turn based on the
application of certain criteria contained in the TERPs. However, if a SIAP
does contain a procedure turn and ATC has cleared a pilot to execute the
SIAP, the pilot must make the procedure turn when one of the conditions of
Section 91.175(j) is not present.

If you have any questions regarding this matter, please contact Patricia
R. Lane, Manager, Airspace and Air Traffic Law Branch, at (202) 267-3491.

Sincerely,

/s/
Patricia R. Lane
for Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division
===========================================

Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 97—STANDARD INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURES
Subpart C—TERPS Procedures

§ 97.20 General.

(a) This subpart prescribes standard instrument procedures and weather
takeoff minimums based on the criteria contained in FAA Order 8260.3, U.S.
Standard for Terminal Instrument Procedures (TERPs), and other related
Orders in the 8260 series that also address instrument procedure design
criteria.

(b) Standard instrument procedures and associated supporting data adopted
by the FAA are documented on FAA Forms 8260–3, 8260–4, 8260–5. Weather
takeoff minimums are documented on FAA Form 8260–15A. These forms are
incorporated by reference. The Director of the Federal Register approved
this incorporation by reference pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 552(a) and 1 CFR part
51...
==================================

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

Since 14 CFR 97 states that the SIAP's are included by reference, it would
seem that the regulatory nature of these SIAP's is pretty clear.


It is to me.



And the procedures based on TERPs are regulatory.


Please cite the FAR that requires a charted PT to be flown whenever one of
the prohibitions of FAR 91.175(j) is not applicable.



Steve,

Myself, Jepp, as well as FAA published legal opinion all agree that a PT
must be flown if the pilot is cleared for a SIAP which includes a PT, and
for which one of the 91.175 exceptions is not present.

SIAP's ARE regulatory. They are included, by reference, in 14 CFR 97.

It is certainly your right to disagree with Jeppesen's interpretation, and
with the FAA Assistant Chief Counsel Regulatory Division's interpretation.

Myself, I will choose to rely on their opinions, and encourage others to
do
the same.

==========================================
Nov. 28, 1994
Mr. Tom Young, Chairman
Charting and Instrument Procedures Committee
Air Line Pilots Association
535 Herndon Parkway
Herndon, VA 22070

Dear Mr. Young,

... A SIAP may or may not prescribe a procedure turn based on the
application of certain criteria contained in the TERPs. However, if a SIAP
does contain a procedure turn and ATC has cleared a pilot to execute the
SIAP, the pilot must make the procedure turn when one of the conditions of
Section 91.175(j) is not present.

If you have any questions regarding this matter, please contact Patricia
R. Lane, Manager, Airspace and Air Traffic Law Branch, at (202) 267-3491.

Sincerely,

/s/
Patricia R. Lane
for Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division
===========================================

Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 97-STANDARD INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURES
Subpart C-TERPS Procedures

§ 97.20 General.

(a) This subpart prescribes standard instrument procedures and weather
takeoff minimums based on the criteria contained in FAA Order 8260.3, U.S.
Standard for Terminal Instrument Procedures (TERPs), and other related
Orders in the 8260 series that also address instrument procedure design
criteria.

(b) Standard instrument procedures and associated supporting data adopted
by the FAA are documented on FAA Forms 8260-3, 8260-4, 8260-5. Weather
takeoff minimums are documented on FAA Form 8260-15A. These forms are
incorporated by reference. The Director of the Federal Register approved
this incorporation by reference pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 552(a) and 1 CFR part
51...
==================================


I am aware of that interpretation, I am also aware that is NOT an
interpretation supported by the FARs.

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 09:32:39 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

I am aware of that interpretation, I am also aware that is NOT an
interpretation supported by the FARs.

No, that's your interpretation. I assume it is based on YOUR reading of
14 CFR 91, 14 CFR 97, 8260.3 as well as the textual description of the
various SIAP's published by the FAA.

My reading of those parts, along with other documents, leads me to disagree
with your interpretation.

In instances where it is clear, unambigous, and supported by others whose
business it is to intepret these things correctly (i.e. Jepp), I choose to
rely on the interpretation of the FAA regulatory division counsel, in
deciding what is required by regulations. And I would recommend others do
so, too.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

No, that's your interpretation. I assume it is based on YOUR reading of
14 CFR 91, 14 CFR 97, 8260.3 as well as the textual description of the
various SIAP's published by the FAA.

My reading of those parts, along with other documents, leads me to
disagree with your interpretation.


So make your case. Fill in the steps between "In the case of a radar vector
to a final approach course or fix, a timed approach from a holding fix, or
an approach for which the procedure specifies 'No PT,' no pilot may make a
procedure turn unless cleared to do so by ATC.[FAR 91.175(j)]", "Procedure
turn means the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to reverse direction
to establish the aircraft on an intermediate or final approach course. The
outbound course, direction of turn, distance within which the turn must be
completed, and minimum altitude are specified in the procedure. However, the
point at which the turn may be commenced, and the type and rate of turn, is
left to the discretion of the pilot. [FAR 97.3(p)]", and, "If a SIAP does
contain a procedure turn and ATC has cleared a pilot to execute the SIAP,
the pilot must make the procedure turn when one of the conditions of Section
91.175(j) is not present.", [statement of Patricia R. Lane].



In instances where it is clear, unambigous, and supported by others whose
business it is to intepret these things correctly (i.e. Jepp), I choose to
rely on the interpretation of the FAA regulatory division counsel, in
deciding what is required by regulations. And I would recommend others do
so, too.


I prefer logic. If it was clear and unambiguous this issue would never be
discussed here.

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 16:37:34 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

So make your case

I've already made my case. You may reread it and the references until you
understand it, or choose to disagree.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)