Cirrus Killer? Cessna just doesn't get it...

Peter Duniho wrote:

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
. ..

A factor that cannot be determined is how many accidents are avoided by
smaller vehicles due to their greater maneuverability.


Many factors are difficult or impossible to determine using current
statistical data gathering.

However, as in aviation, driver error is fundamentally the root cause of
most accidents. I find it amusing to see so many people (not just in this
newsgroup either) argue about which vehicle is "safer" when first of all
they haven't even agreed on what "safer" means, but more importantly when
most of those drivers need a "safer" vehicle because they and everyone else
on the road refuse to drive safely in the first place.

Yes, it is unfortunate that to the auto crowd, especially folks in
government or the IIHS, that "safety" is defined as "crash worthiness"
rather than "capable of crash avoidance."


Matt

Stirling Moss was commentating at the Watkins Glen GP years ago. He
described being pulled over the day before by a NY State Trooper while
"enthusiastically" motoring along the winding upstate NY roads in a borrowed
Mini Cooper S (the original one). The cop walked up the window and asked,
"Who the hell do you think YOU are, Stirling Moss?" After a bit of humorous
confusion over his driver's license, the cop was pretty nice until they got
into a heated debate about the relative safety of the Mini versus the cop's
Police Cruiser. The incident ended with Moss getting a ticket. True story.

Having had a Mini in the 70's, I would rather be driving one of those than
any SUV anytime. The ability to AVOID the accident in the first place is
always better than just surviving one.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Peter Duniho wrote:

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
. ..

A factor that cannot be determined is how many accidents are avoided by
smaller vehicles due to their greater maneuverability.


Many factors are difficult or impossible to determine using current
statistical data gathering.

However, as in aviation, driver error is fundamentally the root cause of
most accidents. I find it amusing to see so many people (not just in
this newsgroup either) argue about which vehicle is "safer" when first of
all they haven't even agreed on what "safer" means, but more importantly
when most of those drivers need a "safer" vehicle because they and
everyone else on the road refuse to drive safely in the first place.

Yes, it is unfortunate that to the auto crowd, especially folks in
government or the IIHS, that "safety" is defined as "crash worthiness"
rather than "capable of crash avoidance."


Matt

"Bob Chilcoat" wrote in

Having had a Mini in the 70's, I would rather be driving one of those than
any SUV anytime. The ability to AVOID the accident in the first place is
always better than just surviving one.

I doubt that maneuverability trumps crashworthiness. I suspect that the
most important maneuverabilty feature of small cars is the shorter stopping
distance. Driving around an accident situation is usually a pretty tough
challenge. And, when it comes to taking a hit, most small cares, and
certainly small cars from the 70s don't fare so well.

moo




--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Peter Duniho wrote:

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
. ..

A factor that cannot be determined is how many accidents are avoided by
smaller vehicles due to their greater maneuverability.


Many factors are difficult or impossible to determine using current
statistical data gathering.

However, as in aviation, driver error is fundamentally the root cause of
most accidents. I find it amusing to see so many people (not just in
this newsgroup either) argue about which vehicle is "safer" when first
of all they haven't even agreed on what "safer" means, but more
importantly when most of those drivers need a "safer" vehicle because
they and everyone else on the road refuse to drive safely in the first
place.

Yes, it is unfortunate that to the auto crowd, especially folks in
government or the IIHS, that "safety" is defined as "crash worthiness"
rather than "capable of crash avoidance."


Matt

Having driven around at least five wouldbe accidents over the years, in
everything from a Buick Riviera, Mini, Renault Fuego, and Porsche 356, I
disagree. Perhaps maneuverability PLUS driving skill and experience trumps
crashworthiness (I have Skip Barber training and some autocross experience).
At any rate, I'd always rather avoid the accident entirely than have one.
:-)

That said, if the accident is truly unavoidable, having a bit more metal
around you is certainly nice. Sort of like the BRS parachute debate: Do
you want to have the ultimate backup to use that one time the wings fold, at
the expense of reduced payload all the time and the increased temptation to
push the limits a bit more often.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Happy Dog" wrote in message
.. .
"Bob Chilcoat" wrote in

Having had a Mini in the 70's, I would rather be driving one of those
than any SUV anytime. The ability to AVOID the accident in the first
place is always better than just surviving one.

I doubt that maneuverability trumps crashworthiness. I suspect that the
most important maneuverabilty feature of small cars is the shorter
stopping distance. Driving around an accident situation is usually a
pretty tough challenge. And, when it comes to taking a hit, most small
cares, and certainly small cars from the 70s don't fare so well.

moo




--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Peter Duniho wrote:

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
. ..

A factor that cannot be determined is how many accidents are avoided by
smaller vehicles due to their greater maneuverability.


Many factors are difficult or impossible to determine using current
statistical data gathering.

However, as in aviation, driver error is fundamentally the root cause
of most accidents. I find it amusing to see so many people (not just
in this newsgroup either) argue about which vehicle is "safer" when
first of all they haven't even agreed on what "safer" means, but more
importantly when most of those drivers need a "safer" vehicle because
they and everyone else on the road refuse to drive safely in the first
place.

Yes, it is unfortunate that to the auto crowd, especially folks in
government or the IIHS, that "safety" is defined as "crash worthiness"
rather than "capable of crash avoidance."


Matt

"Bob Chilcoat" wrote in message
...
Having driven around at least five wouldbe accidents over the years, in
everything from a Buick Riviera, Mini, Renault Fuego, and Porsche 356, I
disagree. Perhaps maneuverability PLUS driving skill and experience
trumps crashworthiness (I have Skip Barber training and some autocross
experience). At any rate, I'd always rather avoid the accident entirely
than have one.

And you are certain that driving, say, a BMW X5 would have caused a
different outcome? How about a Ford Explorer? What are you going to do
when you get older and your reflexes slow?

That said, if the accident is truly unavoidable, having a bit more metal
around you is certainly nice.

It's much more than "nice". It's your ass.

Sort of like the BRS parachute debate: Do you want to have the ultimate
backup to use that one time the wings fold, at the expense of reduced
payload all the time and the increased temptation to push the limits a bit
more often.

Just because you can't control yourself doesn't mean nobody else can. Your
argument about temptation applies more to quick cars than planes and pilots.
I have an old M3, street legal, sort of, but basically ready to race. I
take it out for fun every few weeks. I can barely make it to the curb
before some yahoo is practically driving up the sidewalk to have a go. Back
when I used to do this stuff on track with other real race cars, I never saw
so much focussed yet misplaced testosterone fueled adrenaline displays.
Flying is hanging with a bunch of girls by comparison.

moo

moo



--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Happy Dog" wrote in message
.. .
"Bob Chilcoat" wrote in

Having had a Mini in the 70's, I would rather be driving one of those
than any SUV anytime. The ability to AVOID the accident in the first
place is always better than just surviving one.

I doubt that maneuverability trumps crashworthiness. I suspect that the
most important maneuverabilty feature of small cars is the shorter
stopping distance. Driving around an accident situation is usually a
pretty tough challenge. And, when it comes to taking a hit, most small
cares, and certainly small cars from the 70s don't fare so well.

moo




--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Peter Duniho wrote:

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
. ..

A factor that cannot be determined is how many accidents are avoided
by
smaller vehicles due to their greater maneuverability.


Many factors are difficult or impossible to determine using current
statistical data gathering.

However, as in aviation, driver error is fundamentally the root cause
of most accidents. I find it amusing to see so many people (not just
in this newsgroup either) argue about which vehicle is "safer" when
first of all they haven't even agreed on what "safer" means, but more
importantly when most of those drivers need a "safer" vehicle because
they and everyone else on the road refuse to drive safely in the first
place.

Yes, it is unfortunate that to the auto crowd, especially folks in
government or the IIHS, that "safety" is defined as "crash worthiness"
rather than "capable of crash avoidance."


Matt

Happy Dog wrote:
"Bob Chilcoat" wrote in


Having had a Mini in the 70's, I would rather be driving one of those than
any SUV anytime. The ability to AVOID the accident in the first place is
always better than just surviving one.


I doubt that maneuverability trumps crashworthiness. I suspect that the
most important maneuverabilty feature of small cars is the shorter stopping
distance. Driving around an accident situation is usually a pretty tough
challenge. And, when it comes to taking a hit, most small cares, and
certainly small cars from the 70s don't fare so well.

Maybe not for you, but for me I'll take accident avoidance over an
accident in the most crashworthy vehicle made.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message news:
"Bob Chilcoat" wrote in


Having had a Mini in the 70's, I would rather be driving one of those
than any SUV anytime. The ability to AVOID the accident in the first
place is always better than just surviving one.


I doubt that maneuverability trumps crashworthiness. I suspect that the
most important maneuverabilty feature of small cars is the shorter
stopping distance. Driving around an accident situation is usually a
pretty tough challenge. And, when it comes to taking a hit, most small
cares, and certainly small cars from the 70s don't fare so well.

Maybe not for you, but for me I'll take accident avoidance over an
accident in the most crashworthy vehicle made.

Hit anything going really fast? Really believe that a BMW X5 is
significantly less able to keep you out of an accident than a Mini? Wanna
bet your kids? Given a hundred years to live, and drive, which ride will
yield more survivors?
moo

Happy Dog wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message news:

"Bob Chilcoat" wrote in



Having had a Mini in the 70's, I would rather be driving one of those
than any SUV anytime. The ability to AVOID the accident in the first
place is always better than just surviving one.


I doubt that maneuverability trumps crashworthiness. I suspect that the
most important maneuverabilty feature of small cars is the shorter
stopping distance. Driving around an accident situation is usually a
pretty tough challenge. And, when it comes to taking a hit, most small
cares, and certainly small cars from the 70s don't fare so well.

Maybe not for you, but for me I'll take accident avoidance over an
accident in the most crashworthy vehicle made.


Hit anything going really fast?

Nothing over 30 MPH, but much above 40 and you are toast no matter what
you drive.


Really believe that a BMW X5 is
significantly less able to keep you out of an accident than a Mini?

Yes, and the BMW is probably the best handling SUV on the market.
Compare a more typical SUV such as an Expedition or Tahoe and the
difference witht he mini is even more dramatic.

Wanna bet your kids?

Yes, I'd much rather have my kids in no accident than in a 50 MPH
accident in an SUV.


Given a hundred years to live, and drive, which ride will
yield more survivors?

I'm betting on the mini. Compare the death and accident rates for SUVs
against cars. Cars are already better.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in
Maybe not for you, but for me I'll take accident avoidance over an
accident in the most crashworthy vehicle made.


Hit anything going really fast?

Nothing over 30 MPH, but much above 40 and you are toast no matter what
you drive.

Wrong. Now how about something hitting you?

Really believe that a BMW X5 is significantly less able to keep you out
of an accident than a Mini?

Yes, and the BMW is probably the best handling SUV on the market. Compare
a more typical SUV such as an Expedition or Tahoe and the difference witht
he mini is even more dramatic.

Certainly. But the question is whether the difference is enough to make up
for the significant crashworthiness difference.

Wanna bet your kids?

Yes, I'd much rather have my kids in no accident than in a 50 MPH accident
in an SUV.

You might wish to live forever, but that, and your response, are irrelevant.
You *do* have a choice between an X5 and a Mini though. Which is it and
why? You might be a supremely gifted driver and able to avoid most
collisions. Most people aren't *and never will be no matter how much they
try*. FWIW, when I was a poor aspiring racer, many years ago, I used to
trade track time for instruction. The worst crash I have ever been in was
with a student driver. They hit the gas instead of locking up the brakes.
Think cruising at 60 MPH, turning as hard as you can into the guardrail
(from the left lane) and standing on the throttle. We walked away. My
experience, and association with many other instructors confirms, that, like
most human endeavours, only a small percentage are prodigies. And, to
acheive the level of skill required to drive around a potential accident
nearly every time, requires too much more than good intentions and a bit of
training.

I've seen so many near misses that were unavoidable with any amount of
skill. Shot happens. And you're more likely to survive it in a larger
(crashworthy) vehicle. The car in the accident mentioned above was a BMW 3
series "Bauer". Was. A lovely, and rare, 3 series targa. The guy had told
his wife he was going golfing...

Given a hundred years to live, and drive, which ride will yield more
survivors?

I'm betting on the mini. Compare the death and accident rates for SUVs
against cars. Cars are already better.

Stats?

moo

On 2005-10-03, Matt Whiting wrote:
Yes, it is unfortunate that to the auto crowd, especially folks in
government or the IIHS, that "safety" is defined as "crash worthiness"
rather than "capable of crash avoidance."

It's the Volvo driver effect. In this country, Volvo drivers have a poor
reputation (mainly amongst motorcyclists) for being dangerous drivers.

What happens is a bad driver tends to gravitate towards Volvo cars
because Volvo are always pimping their safety features (and Volvo cars
do have very good passive safety features). Instead of correcting the
driving errors that caused their last crash, they just buy a Volvo so
they have a better chance of walking away from the next crash they
cause.

I think in the US, this forms part of the SUV buying mentality from the
people who would be perfectly well served by a mid size car.

Governments don't help either - they just bring out initiatives to make
it look as if they are doing something (lowering speed limits, speed
cameras, traffic aggravationg^W calming measures etc.) which are quick,
simple, popular and cheap - instead of addressing the real cause of poor
road safety (which would be very unpopular - I think there should be a
BDR - Biennial Driving Review, and the mandatory driving instruction and
tests should be much tougher - and include emergency training, such as
skid pan training, plus eye and reaction tests as a simple medical).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"