Cirrus Killer? Cessna just doesn't get it...

On 2005-10-05, wrote:

(Happy Dog wrote...)
You imagine they do? I just find Volvo drivers to be a bit weird. And they
all seem to wear hats. Ever noticed that?

Certainly a common theme amongst Volvo drivers :-)

Thank you very much, the both of you.

Like all generalisations, it's not necessarily true for everything, but
there is a high preponderance of it being true.

P.S.P.S. Is either one of you flying Cessna? Hmmmm?

Well, my recent flight hours have been in:

Piper TriPacer
Grumman Cheetah
Auster (160hp conversion)

Although I did fly my friend's Cessna 180 a bit on my last trip to Salt
Lake City.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...
On 2005-10-05, wrote:

(Happy Dog wrote...)
You imagine they do? I just find Volvo drivers to be a bit weird. And
they
all seem to wear hats. Ever noticed that?

Certainly a common theme amongst Volvo drivers :-)


They're probably also worried about skin cancer.

"Matt Whiting" wrote in
Maybe not for you, but for me I'll take accident avoidance over an
accident in the most crashworthy vehicle made.


Hit anything going really fast?

Nothing over 30 MPH, but much above 40 and you are toast no matter what
you drive.

Wrong. Now how about something hitting you?

Really believe that a BMW X5 is significantly less able to keep you out
of an accident than a Mini?

Yes, and the BMW is probably the best handling SUV on the market. Compare
a more typical SUV such as an Expedition or Tahoe and the difference witht
he mini is even more dramatic.

Certainly. But the question is whether the difference is enough to make up
for the significant crashworthiness difference.

Wanna bet your kids?

Yes, I'd much rather have my kids in no accident than in a 50 MPH accident
in an SUV.

You might wish to live forever, but that, and your response, are irrelevant.
You *do* have a choice between an X5 and a Mini though. Which is it and
why? You might be a supremely gifted driver and able to avoid most
collisions. Most people aren't *and never will be no matter how much they
try*. FWIW, when I was a poor aspiring racer, many years ago, I used to
trade track time for instruction. The worst crash I have ever been in was
with a student driver. They hit the gas instead of locking up the brakes.
Think cruising at 60 MPH, turning as hard as you can into the guardrail
(from the left lane) and standing on the throttle. We walked away. My
experience, and association with many other instructors confirms, that, like
most human endeavours, only a small percentage are prodigies. And, to
acheive the level of skill required to drive around a potential accident
nearly every time, requires too much more than good intentions and a bit of
training.

I've seen so many near misses that were unavoidable with any amount of
skill. Shot happens. And you're more likely to survive it in a larger
(crashworthy) vehicle. The car in the accident mentioned above was a BMW 3
series "Bauer". Was. A lovely, and rare, 3 series targa. The guy had told
his wife he was going golfing...

Given a hundred years to live, and drive, which ride will yield more
survivors?

I'm betting on the mini. Compare the death and accident rates for SUVs
against cars. Cars are already better.

Stats?

moo

Happy Dog wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in

Maybe not for you, but for me I'll take accident avoidance over an
accident in the most crashworthy vehicle made.


Hit anything going really fast?

Nothing over 30 MPH, but much above 40 and you are toast no matter what
you drive.


Wrong. Now how about something hitting you?

I've so far avoided the incompetent drivers around me both in my cars
and on my motorcycles. Riding a motorcycle tends to make one a very
alert operator.



Really believe that a BMW X5 is significantly less able to keep you out
of an accident than a Mini?

Yes, and the BMW is probably the best handling SUV on the market. Compare
a more typical SUV such as an Expedition or Tahoe and the difference witht
he mini is even more dramatic.


Certainly. But the question is whether the difference is enough to make up
for the significant crashworthiness difference.

I only have to avoid one crash to make up the difference. You are
basing your argument on the underlying assumption that a crash is
inevitable. I don't accept that premise.


Wanna bet your kids?

Yes, I'd much rather have my kids in no accident than in a 50 MPH accident
in an SUV.


You might wish to live forever, but that, and your response, are irrelevant.
You *do* have a choice between an X5 and a Mini though. Which is it and
why? You might be a supremely gifted driver and able to avoid most
collisions. Most people aren't *and never will be no matter how much they
try*. FWIW, when I was a poor aspiring racer, many years ago, I used to
trade track time for instruction. The worst crash I have ever been in was
with a student driver. They hit the gas instead of locking up the brakes.
Think cruising at 60 MPH, turning as hard as you can into the guardrail
(from the left lane) and standing on the throttle. We walked away. My
experience, and association with many other instructors confirms, that, like
most human endeavours, only a small percentage are prodigies. And, to
acheive the level of skill required to drive around a potential accident
nearly every time, requires too much more than good intentions and a bit of
training.

It is inevitable that I will die. It is not inevitable that I will be
in an automobile crash. The only wreck I've had was a single vehicle
accident in a VW Beetle where I lost control in heavy snow. I was 17
years old and haven't had an accident since then and that was nearly 30
years ago.

Well, I've succeeded for 30 years. I also ride motorcycles, so for me
any car is a big step up in crashworthiness, but a step down in crash
avoidance. Trying to sell me an SUV for crashworthiness reasons is a
lost cause.

Also, you increase the chance of an accident due to roll-over. The last
statistics I saw showed that SUVs were LESS safe then cars, so your
argument simply doesn't hold in the real world.


I've seen so many near misses that were unavoidable with any amount of
skill. Shot happens. And you're more likely to survive it in a larger
(crashworthy) vehicle. The car in the accident mentioned above was a BMW 3
series "Bauer". Was. A lovely, and rare, 3 series targa. The guy had told
his wife he was going golfing...

You are again equating size with crashworthiness and this simply isn't
correct based on the statistics to date.


Given a hundred years to live, and drive, which ride will yield more
survivors?

I'm betting on the mini. Compare the death and accident rates for SUVs
against cars. Cars are already better.


Stats?

Do some research. The last stats I saw were in Consumer Reports, but I
believe they came from NHTSA.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in
Nothing over 30 MPH, but much above 40 and you are toast no matter what
you drive.


Wrong. Now how about something hitting you?

I've so far avoided the incompetent drivers around me both in my cars and
on my motorcycles. Riding a motorcycle tends to make one a very alert
operator.

Yet the stats show motorcycles to be much more dangerous than cars. Or do
accidents mostly happen to non-alert operators? And you were about to say
about the survivability of collisions above 40 MPH?

Yes, and the BMW is probably the best handling SUV on the market. Compare
a more typical SUV such as an Expedition or Tahoe and the difference
witht he mini is even more dramatic.

Certainly. But the question is whether the difference is enough to make
up for the significant crashworthiness difference.

I only have to avoid one crash to make up the difference. You are basing
your argument on the underlying assumption that a crash is inevitable. I
don't accept that premise.

Many of them are. You're an idiot if you think you're immune. And,
survivability, given enough time and miles, *is* the issue. The difference
between the great driver who avoids every accident and the one who doesn't
is, eventually, luck.

Yes, I'd much rather have my kids in no accident than in a 50 MPH
accident in an SUV.

You might wish to live forever, but that, and your response, are
irrelevant. You *do* have a choice between an X5 and a Mini though.
Which is it and why? You might be a supremely gifted driver and able to
avoid most collisions. Most people aren't *and never will be no matter
how much they try*. FWIW, when I was a poor aspiring racer, many years
ago, I used to trade track time for instruction. The worst crash I have
ever been in was with a student driver. They hit the gas instead of
locking up the brakes. Think cruising at 60 MPH, turning as hard as you
can into the guardrail (from the left lane) and standing on the throttle.
We walked away. My experience, and association with many other
instructors confirms, that, like most human endeavours, only a small
percentage are prodigies. And, to acheive the level of skill required to
drive around a potential accident nearly every time, requires too much
more than good intentions and a bit of training.

It is inevitable that I will die. It is not inevitable that I will be in
an automobile crash. The only wreck I've had was a single vehicle
accident in a VW Beetle where I lost control in heavy snow. I was 17
years old and haven't had an accident since then and that was nearly 30
years ago.

That you can't see the error in your logic is, at once, disturbing and
pedestrian.

Well, I've succeeded for 30 years. I also ride motorcycles, so for me any
car is a big step up in crashworthiness, but a step down in crash
avoidance. Trying to sell me an SUV for crashworthiness reasons is a lost
cause.

Also, you increase the chance of an accident due to roll-over. The last
statistics I saw showed that SUVs were LESS safe then cars, so your
argument simply doesn't hold in the real world.

Cites, please?


I've seen so many near misses that were unavoidable with any amount of
skill. Shot happens. And you're more likely to survive it in a larger
(crashworthy) vehicle. The car in the accident mentioned above was a BMW
3 series "Bauer". Was. A lovely, and rare, 3 series targa. The guy had
told his wife he was going golfing...

You are again equating size with crashworthiness and this simply isn't
correct based on the statistics to date.

No. I'm speaking about crashworthiness, period. Usually it's bigger. Not
always. And, sometimes, like the experience related above, luck plays a big
part.

Given a hundred years to live, and drive, which ride will yield more
survivors?

I'm betting on the mini. Compare the death and accident rates for SUVs
against cars. Cars are already better.


Stats?

Do some research. The last stats I saw were in Consumer Reports, but I
believe they came from NHTSA.

You made the claim. Just cite your stats. You're comparing SUVs and small
(compact & sub-compact) cars, right?

moo

I was only kidding.

Nice choice of aircraft BTW.

-Kees.

On 2005-10-05, Happy Dog wrote:
I've seen so many near misses that were unavoidable with any amount of
skill. Shot happens. And you're more likely to survive it in a larger
(crashworthy) vehicle. The car in the accident mentioned above was a BMW 3

People also drive a lot more carelessly in a vehicle they feel is
'safe'. This is part of the self-reinforcing problem: people feel unsafe
in a car with all these big SUVs around (being driven carelessly) so end
up buying a huge SUV and driving carelessly themselves.

It has often been speculated that having a big spike sticking out the
steering wheel would do wonders for improving road safety.

In this country, at least, the Mini had quite a good safety record
despite its lack of crashworthiness. Since a Mini was my student car, I
know why - you feel very vulnerable in a Mini. So you drive bloody
carefully and try and avoid the situations in the first place that may
result in a crash. You look extra carefully at junctions. You make sure
there really is enough space to overtake (especially in an 850cc car).
You never ever tailgate because you feel extremely vulnerable tailgating
someone. You drive carefully in snow and ice because you know hitting a
tree is going to put you in hospital at best. You take care to look far
ahead on the road to see a traffic situation developing that you don't
want to be a part of. Unlike my teenage peers at the time who drove by
and large their bigger, more modern cars in a reckless manner (and
frequently roofed them), I drove very carefully because I knew roofing
my car == hospital stay.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

Happy Dog wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in

Nothing over 30 MPH, but much above 40 and you are toast no matter what
you drive.


Wrong. Now how about something hitting you?

I've so far avoided the incompetent drivers around me both in my cars and
on my motorcycles. Riding a motorcycle tends to make one a very alert
operator.


Yet the stats show motorcycles to be much more dangerous than cars. Or do
accidents mostly happen to non-alert operators? And you were about to say
about the survivability of collisions above 40 MPH?

Yes, most accidents happen to folks that aren't paying attention and
maintaining situational awareness. Just as in flying.


Yes, and the BMW is probably the best handling SUV on the market. Compare
a more typical SUV such as an Expedition or Tahoe and the difference
witht he mini is even more dramatic.

Certainly. But the question is whether the difference is enough to make
up for the significant crashworthiness difference.

I only have to avoid one crash to make up the difference. You are basing
your argument on the underlying assumption that a crash is inevitable. I
don't accept that premise.


Many of them are. You're an idiot if you think you're immune. And,
survivability, given enough time and miles, *is* the issue. The difference
between the great driver who avoids every accident and the one who doesn't
is, eventually, luck.

Never said I was immune. A vehicle that is even 50% more crashworthy
than another (if there is even a decent way to make such a comparison),
still doesn't GUARANTEE survival. That is my point. Avoiding an
accident guarantees survival. Getting in an accident, even in the
biggest, baddest SUV, doesn't guarantee survival. Personally, I'd
rather focus on avoiding the accident and having 100% survivability,
than to accept a few accidents and hope that I survive the accident.

The fundamental point is that I believe it is a better deal to increase
my odds of avoiding an accident and trading a little crashworthiness to
do that (although, the SUV data doesn't even support that they are
better overall than cars). You are saying you would rather have more
accidents, but have them in a more crashworthy vehicle. That is your
choice, but you may want to do some research on crash statistics before
you make your purchase as your SUV isn't the best choice.


Yes, I'd much rather have my kids in no accident than in a 50 MPH
accident in an SUV.

You might wish to live forever, but that, and your response, are
irrelevant. You *do* have a choice between an X5 and a Mini though.
Which is it and why? You might be a supremely gifted driver and able to
avoid most collisions. Most people aren't *and never will be no matter
how much they try*. FWIW, when I was a poor aspiring racer, many years
ago, I used to trade track time for instruction. The worst crash I have
ever been in was with a student driver. They hit the gas instead of
locking up the brakes. Think cruising at 60 MPH, turning as hard as you
can into the guardrail (from the left lane) and standing on the throttle.
We walked away. My experience, and association with many other
instructors confirms, that, like most human endeavours, only a small
percentage are prodigies. And, to acheive the level of skill required to
drive around a potential accident nearly every time, requires too much
more than good intentions and a bit of training.

It is inevitable that I will die. It is not inevitable that I will be in
an automobile crash. The only wreck I've had was a single vehicle
accident in a VW Beetle where I lost control in heavy snow. I was 17
years old and haven't had an accident since then and that was nearly 30
years ago.


That you can't see the error in your logic is, at once, disturbing and
pedestrian.

There is no error in my logic. I'm basically doing an expected value
calculation mentally. Look it up.


Well, I've succeeded for 30 years. I also ride motorcycles, so for me any
car is a big step up in crashworthiness, but a step down in crash
avoidance. Trying to sell me an SUV for crashworthiness reasons is a lost
cause.

Also, you increase the chance of an accident due to roll-over. The last
statistics I saw showed that SUVs were LESS safe then cars, so your
argument simply doesn't hold in the real world.


Cites, please?

Consumer Reports. I don't recall which issue and am not going to dig
through my 10 years of back issues on your behalf. Do you own research.


I've seen so many near misses that were unavoidable with any amount of
skill. Shot happens. And you're more likely to survive it in a larger
(crashworthy) vehicle. The car in the accident mentioned above was a BMW
3 series "Bauer". Was. A lovely, and rare, 3 series targa. The guy had
told his wife he was going golfing...

You are again equating size with crashworthiness and this simply isn't
correct based on the statistics to date.


No. I'm speaking about crashworthiness, period. Usually it's bigger. Not
always. And, sometimes, like the experience related above, luck plays a big
part.

Yes, but competent alert drivers have much greater luck than the average
driver. :-)


Given a hundred years to live, and drive, which ride will yield more
survivors?

I'm betting on the mini. Compare the death and accident rates for SUVs
against cars. Cars are already better.


Stats?

Do some research. The last stats I saw were in Consumer Reports, but I
believe they came from NHTSA.


You made the claim. Just cite your stats. You're comparing SUVs and small
(compact & sub-compact) cars, right?

I don't need to cite the stats. I know the data and am comfortable with
that. If you want to see the data, go find it. I told you above where
to look.


Matt

Dylan Smith wrote:

On 2005-10-05, Happy Dog wrote:

I've seen so many near misses that were unavoidable with any amount of
skill. Shot happens. And you're more likely to survive it in a larger
(crashworthy) vehicle. The car in the accident mentioned above was a BMW 3


People also drive a lot more carelessly in a vehicle they feel is
'safe'. This is part of the self-reinforcing problem: people feel unsafe
in a car with all these big SUVs around (being driven carelessly) so end
up buying a huge SUV and driving carelessly themselves.

It has often been speculated that having a big spike sticking out the
steering wheel would do wonders for improving road safety.

In this country, at least, the Mini had quite a good safety record
despite its lack of crashworthiness. Since a Mini was my student car, I
know why - you feel very vulnerable in a Mini. So you drive bloody
carefully and try and avoid the situations in the first place that may
result in a crash. You look extra carefully at junctions. You make sure
there really is enough space to overtake (especially in an 850cc car).
You never ever tailgate because you feel extremely vulnerable tailgating
someone. You drive carefully in snow and ice because you know hitting a
tree is going to put you in hospital at best. You take care to look far
ahead on the road to see a traffic situation developing that you don't
want to be a part of. Unlike my teenage peers at the time who drove by
and large their bigger, more modern cars in a reckless manner (and
frequently roofed them), I drove very carefully because I knew roofing
my car == hospital stay.


What is your definition of crashworthiness? If the mini has a good
safety record and is protecting its occupants, then it IS crashworthy in
my book.


Matt

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
I've seen so many near misses that were unavoidable with any amount of
skill. Shot happens. And you're more likely to survive it in a larger
(crashworthy) vehicle. The car in the accident mentioned above was a BMW
3

People also drive a lot more carelessly in a vehicle they feel is
'safe'. This is part of the self-reinforcing problem: people feel unsafe
in a car with all these big SUVs around (being driven carelessly) so end
up buying a huge SUV and driving carelessly themselves.

I want to see some evidence of this. Cab drivers drive carelessly. They
dont drive SUVs. Does anyone have some hard numbers on this?

It has often been speculated that having a big spike sticking out the
steering wheel would do wonders for improving road safety.

Fear is the key to your soul. Already knew that.

In this country, at least, the Mini had quite a good safety record
despite its lack of crashworthiness. Since a Mini was my student car, I
know why - you feel very vulnerable in a Mini. So you drive bloody
carefully and try and avoid the situations in the first place that may
result in a crash.

Oh please. Kids will drive like maniacs in anything. Anything. Teenage
boys are unstoppable when it comes to reckless behaviour and there are sound
biological reasons for this. If you really know what you're doing, you can
draw many people under the age of, say, 30, into something they can't steer
out of. Liability and the possiblity that my posts might be used in a
mental competancy hearing prevent me from expounding. (I know, H. Thompson
said this first. So don't bug me about it.)

You look extra carefully at junctions. You make sure
there really is enough space to overtake (especially in an 850cc car).
You never ever tailgate because you feel extremely vulnerable tailgating
someone. You drive carefully in snow and ice because you know hitting a
tree is going to put you in hospital at best. You take care to look far
ahead on the road to see a traffic situation developing that you don't
want to be a part of. Unlike my teenage peers at the time who drove by
and large their bigger, more modern cars in a reckless manner (and
frequently roofed them), I drove very carefully because I knew roofing
my car == hospital stay.

Then you got it. But don't think that everyone else did.

moo