Change in AIM wording concerning procedure turn

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

Where does it state that the determination as to when a course reversal is
necessary is to be made by the pilot?


Where does it state when a course reversal is necessary at all?



By regulation we are required to fly a SIAP as published when it is
necessary, and the SIAP is regulatory by inclusion by reference into 14
CFR 97.


I don't think anybody disputes that, but you're saying we are also required
by regulation to fly a SIAP as published when it is NOT necessary. Yet you
can't cite any regulation that says that.



If the SIAP includes a procedure turn, without qualification as to how one
is approaching that point (i.e. NoPT routings), then it becomes regulatory
by virtue of the above.


Alright, here's a real world example for you. You're flying AWI123 from
KORD to KGRB, Chicago departure puts you in the east departure track on a
360 heading and hands you off to Chicago Center. Around the Kenosha, WI,
area Chicago Center tells you to proceed direct to GRB VORTAC. Down the
road a piece you're handed off to Green Bay approach. At GRB the ILS RWY 36
approach is in use, and the approach controller notices you're present track
will intercept the localizer about fifteen miles from DEPRE, the LOM/IAF.
On initial contact you're told "descend and maintain 3,000 join the runway
36 localizer". About three minutes later you hear the same instruction
issued to EGF456. When you're about five miles from DEPRE the approach
controller says "AWI123 cleared ILS runway three six contact tower one one
eight point seven." When you reach DEPRE will you continue towards the
runway or will you start a procedure turn?

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/00873I36.PDF

In response to Steven McNicoll's scenario:

It wasn't clear to me from the scenario you wrote whether I'd be
arriving from the north or elsewhere. If from the north, I'd have to
fly the published PT because a course reversal is necessary. So, upon
arriving DEPRE, I'd continue south on the localizer for about 1.5
minutes, and fly any type of PT to the west of the localizer. Upon
returning to the localizer, I'd follow the glideslope down.

If I'm approaching from the south (which is probably what you meant)
and hadn't already arrived at GRB VORTAC before being cleared for the
ILS, I'd join the localizer and:
1) when I'm within 10 nm of DEPRE, descend to 2700 and inform approach
that I'm "leaving 3000 for 2700"; and
2) capture and follow the glide slope.

In my opinion, the PT is unnecessary because there is no course
reversal. Some would probably argue that you've been given radar
vectors because your prior instruction was direct GRB VORTAC.

In this northbound scenario, let's say you weren't cleared to 3000, and
were still at an en route altitude, suppose 6000, when approach clears
you for the ILS. You'd have to lose altitude fast. I still wouldn't
do the PT. I'd instead opt to descend in a holding pattern at DEPRE
(which is an IAF) down to 2200 (or capture glideslope northbound when
south of DEPRE on an inbound leg of the hold). Of course, I'd let
approach (or tower, as appropriate) know what I'm doing so that ATC is
not surprised. If they need the airspace for someone else, they'd let
me know. Doing so also keeps me closer to the airport in case
something goes wrong when I'm descending. I think you could opt to do
a PT instead, but how would you know when to begin the PT if you're
approaching from the south and don't have a GPS?

I forgot to mentiond that I'd hold south of DEPRE, left turns.

"rps" wrote in message
oups.com...

I forgot to mentiond that I'd hold south of DEPRE, left turns.


Any concern about EGF456?

Good point - I forgot about the other craft. I'd hope that my
communication with ATC about my plan to enter the hold and descend
would alert ATC that there may be a conflict.

"rps" wrote in message
ups.com...

Good point - I forgot about the other craft. I'd hope that my
communication with ATC about my plan to enter the hold and descend
would alert ATC that there may be a conflict.


Yeah, they'll probably break you out and put you behind him.

"rps" wrote in message
ups.com...

In response to Steven McNicoll's scenario:

It wasn't clear to me from the scenario you wrote whether I'd be
arriving from the north or elsewhere.


KGRB is about 150 miles north of KORD.



If from the north, I'd have to
fly the published PT because a course reversal is necessary. So, upon
arriving DEPRE, I'd continue south on the localizer for about 1.5
minutes, and fly any type of PT to the west of the localizer. Upon
returning to the localizer, I'd follow the glideslope down.

If I'm approaching from the south (which is probably what you meant)
and hadn't already arrived at GRB VORTAC


I included a link to the approach plate, it shows the VORTAC to be about
five miles NNW of the field.



before being cleared for the
ILS, I'd join the localizer and:
1) when I'm within 10 nm of DEPRE, descend to 2700 and inform approach
that I'm "leaving 3000 for 2700"; and
2) capture and follow the glide slope.


If you begin descent when ten miles from DEPRE you've busted your altitude.
The last instruction was "descend and maintain 3,000, join the runway 36
localizer", approach clearance was issued at five miles from DEPRE.



In my opinion, the PT is unnecessary because there is no course
reversal. Some would probably argue that you've been given radar
vectors because your prior instruction was direct GRB VORTAC.


Those making that argument would be wrong. If you're on your own navigation
direct to a fix you're not being vectored, you're being vectored when you're
on an assigned heading.

Steven P. McNicoll said:

"If you begin descent when ten miles from DEPRE you've busted your
altitude.
The last instruction was 'descend and maintain 3,000, join the runway
36
localizer', approach clearance was issued at five miles from DEPRE."

I thought the last instruction was "AWI123 cleared ILS runway three six
contact tower one one eight point seven." You may not be able to
intercept the glideslope from 3000 (e.g., if the signal is weak there),
which is why I suggest descending.

According to the plate, if you were flying the PT, upon crossing DEPRE
southbound, you can descend to 2700 and track outbound on the PT and
then descend to 2200 once you've begun turning inbound on the PT. The
PT area includes the entire area south of DEPRE and west of the
localizer for a radius of 10 nm. So, if you're on the localizer, I
believe you can safely descend to 2700 so that you have a chance of
capturing the glideslope from below. I suggested to let ATC know so
that ATC can correct you if that's not what they want you to do.

Correction - instead of "then descend to 2200 once you've begun turning
inbound on the PT" I should have written "then descend to 2200 once
you've begun turning inbound onto the FAC."

"rps" wrote in message
oups.com...

Steven P. McNicoll said:

"If you begin descent when ten miles from DEPRE you've busted your
altitude. The last instruction was 'descend and maintain 3,000, join the
runway 36 localizer', approach clearance was issued at five miles from
DEPRE."

I thought the last instruction was "AWI123 cleared ILS runway three six
contact tower one one eight point seven." You may not be able to
intercept the glideslope from 3000 (e.g., if the signal is weak there),
which is why I suggest descending.


You might want to read the scenario again. The approach clearance was
issued when the aircraft was five miles from DEPRE, so when you're ten miles
from DEPRE that hasn't happened yet. When ten miles from DEPRE the last
instruction was indeed "descend and maintain 3,000, join the runway 36
localizer". When you're five miles from DEPRE you're about 700' below the
glideslope and less than tem miles from the GS transmitter. The signal is
fine.