Gas Prices -- Help at last?

The law doesn't outlaw building them, just says you need to build it to
meet modern environmental standards. That makes the older GRANDFATHERED
units "cheap".

No, it doesn't, because you have to retrofit the old and probably
uneconomical plant.

Imagine if you had to meet current automobile tailpipe emissions on
your ancient 172.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

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Perhaps the government
should get into the production and refining business and offer some
"competition" or incentive to the oil industry. Any government profits
could be used to support the general fund or any other lawful
government endeavor.

Yes, that would solve everything, that would!

The U.S. Postal Service selling gasoline. The state Motor Vehicle
Department distributing it. The teachers' lobby refining it. The U.S.
Congress exploring for it. FEMA drawing up the longterm plans. Kofi
Anna as energy czar!

Kinda makes you feel warm all over, don't it? Our future is secure!


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
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the blog: www.danford.net
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On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 07:59:49 +0200, Martin Hotze
wrote:

Davis Monthan Air Force Base with selling aircraft parts (hey, seems to be
on topic) is the only US military facility making a profit (so I was told
at a tour there)

Must have been a government accountant, then!

You could make a profit by selling your airplane in pieces, too, if
you didn't count the cost of the airplane.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

Jay Honeck wrote:
Heh... and this is really the punchline. Think about it: crude oil is
far and away our civilizations most precious natural resource and it's
being sold for less than drinking water (or it had been up until now). I
don't think anyone really believes that prices like that are
sustainable, especially given that the oil supply is finite and
non-renewable.


Interesting.

a. In one corner we've got folks saying that the big, bad Oil Companies
are making obscene, HUGE profits at current prices.

b. In the other corner, we've got guys like you saying that the price
is too low, and shouldn't be so cheap.

If supply and demand is in action here, (a) and (b) can't co-exist.

It's safe to say, however, that both of these analyses are overly
simplistic. In fact, a) and b) can coexist and here's how:

a) While it might be true that the oil companies are making record
profits at the current time, I can promise you they're sweating bullets
right now about the price of gas and other petrolium products. Why?
Well, they know, like any other business owners/ops know, that there's
an upper limit to the price of their products. This works like any other
business - you want the highest possible price for your product that
does NOT reduce demand for it. In fact, any time you bump up the price
of your product you're taking a risk in this regard. You know how all
this works so I won't go into it. But I think the dynamic going on here
should be obvious.
This was an ugly, ugly lesson for the oil companies back in the 70's
when US production peaked, causing prices to skyrocket and shocking the
economy into conservation. I promise you this experience is still fresh
in their minds and a lot of sleep is being lost over it.

b) The obverse is true as well - you don't want your product priced
excessively _low_ either. There are two consequences of this: 1)
excessively low margin and 2) possibly excessive demand. Up until now,
the margins and supply have been permissive enough to allow selling gas
more cheaply than H2O here in the US.

That's no longer true, for reasons that I think are obvious. The need
for more refining capacity (big cost!), increasing
shipping/processing/etc costs, gubbamint regulation and questionable
supply (this is a dissertation-long issue here) have made the old
cheap-as-hell pricing scheme simply unsustainable.

So, you can see the rock/hardplace situation he cheap gas is not
sustainable, but TOO high of a price hike might shock the economy into
conservation which NO business would EVER want for its products....

Truth is, I wouldn't want to be an oil company right now, because
they're fixin' to get into some really hard times. The current drama
going on at the gas pumps right now speaks directly to this issue...

As I said, we're lucky to only be paying 3 bucks right now...


LS
N646F
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I just *love* it when liberals tell us we have to be taxed, or taxed more,
on a commodity "for our own good." Is it to cut consumption? Well, then
*you* trade your SUV in for a bicycle, and we'll how that works for you.

Why is it sane to artificially raise the price of gas? Does the end
justify
the means? Conservation and alternative fuels are certainly some to
look forward to, but at what price?

"Cub Driver" wrote in message ...
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 03:41:28 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

It will make fascinating reading, trying to discern the real reasons that an
oil company would close a badly needed oil refinery.

Because meeting EPA regulations costs more than the refined products
could ever pay back.


-- all the best, Dan Ford



Unless of course you charged what it really costs!

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message ...
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:Ij02f.465927$xm3.216500@attbi_s21...
The question was rhetorical. The point is, it's a bit disingenuous for the oil companies to claim they need to
build new refineries when they are the ones who have chosen to close the ones they had.

Source?

What do you mean "source"? You posted the source. Duh.

It will make fascinating reading, trying to discern the real reasons that an oil company would close a badly needed
oil refinery.

I agree.

The fact that the refineries were closed is indisputable. So either they closed a badly needed refinery, or they
closed a refinery they didn't need. Dozens of times. If you have information that suggests "the real reasons that an
oil company would close a badly needed oil refinery", I'm all ears.

Personally, I think the more likely answer is that the oil refinery wasn't all that badly needed in the first place.


It is the run it at 100% capacity rule. If you are only running at 60% capacity then you have too much capacity...in the
eyes of the company. As far as critical infrastructure is concerned however the gov't should mandate that some capacity
be held in reserve, just like they do with other critical industries...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:u802f.226888$084.41833@attbi_s22...

Somewhere down the road, when you're complaining that the only jobs for American kids anymore is flipping burgers at
Mickey D's, remember this discussion.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



Yup, and at least they could use the oil from the fries to run the car! ;-)

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message ...
On 8 Oct 2005 15:04:49 -0700, Jay Honeck wrote:

Which either means (a) your theory doesn't hold water, or (b) Europeans
simply don't have the scientific and industrial wherewithal to develop
alternative fuels, whatever the cost.

yeah, sometimes we really come out of our caves, but mostly only because of
the tourists.

#m


I am really surprised you guys didn't start quoting the 'alternatives' you have over there. I was researching solar
panels to use on my new house (still too expensive compared to NG) and very many references point to Europe. Some great
devices that capture the heat of the sun directly to heat the house, others to generate electricity, etc. A lot of ocean
wave to electricity work being done also. You Europeans are so used to the trains going all over that you don't even
consider it an option anymore, it is SOP. GM was very instrumental in removing mass transit capability in many of the US
cities by promoting and basically giving away busses. Now the mass transit capabilities are severely handicapped and
folks think they have to use their own car. It is interesting how making the cost of oil more realistic leads to
differences...

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message news

so send them all to Iowa :-)

#m

--
Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html


I know where there is a nice Inn...