Change in AIM wording concerning procedure turn

On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 03:34:29 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
.. .

7110.65 4-8-1. APPROACH CLEARANCE
a. ... Standard Instrument Approach Procedures shall commence at an
Initial
Approach Fix or an Intermediate Approach Fix if there is not an
Initial Approach Fix.


That requirement is not violated. AWI123 intercepts the localizer fifteen
miles south of DEPRE. DEPRE is an IAF.



What is the minimum altitude at DEPRE when it is being used as an IAF?


AWI123 is level at 3000 and five miles south of DEPRE when cleared for the
approach. He follows the localizer down and crosses DEPRE at 2141 MSL.



How is the initial segment defined?


The segment between the intial approach fix and the intermediate fix or the
point where the aircraft is established on the intermediate course or final
approach course.



How will you navigate from DEPRE to the FAF for the ILS approach?


Lateral guidance is provided by the localizer, if I've passed DEPRE I've
passed the FAF.


Just so I understand exactly what you are saying, is it your position that,
when using DEPRE as the IAF for the purpose of starting this SIAP, if one
is inbound, the legal minimum altitude at DEPRE is 2141'?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

Just so I understand exactly what you are saying, is it your position
that,
when using DEPRE as the IAF for the purpose of starting this SIAP, if one
is inbound, the legal minimum altitude at DEPRE is 2141'?


There is no Minimum Descent Altitude on an ILS approach, there is instead a
Decision Height. AWI123 is level at 3000 and five miles south of DEPRE, on
the localizer, when cleared for the approach. The aircraft leaves 3000
about 2.7 miles south of DEPRE, where it intercepts the glideslope. It
follows the glideslope down, crossing DEPRE at 2141 MSL, to the decision
height of 882 MSL. From that point it will either complete the approach
visually or execute the missed approach procedure.

* Steven P. McNicoll :
follows the glideslope down, crossing DEPRE at 2141 MSL, to the decision
height of 882 MSL.

The decision height is 200ft for straight-in ILS 36. What you mean is
the decision altitude. Unless I've misunderstood something completely.


Best regards,
Daniel

"Daniel Roesen" wrote in message
...

The decision height is 200ft for straight-in ILS 36. What you mean is
the decision altitude. Unless I've misunderstood something completely.


No, I mean decision height. The decision height for the S-ILS 36 is 882
MSL, the height above touchdown is 200 feet.

On 10/11/2005 09:31, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Daniel Roesen" wrote in message
...

The decision height is 200ft for straight-in ILS 36. What you mean is
the decision altitude. Unless I've misunderstood something completely.


No, I mean decision height. The decision height for the S-ILS 36 is 882
MSL, the height above touchdown is 200 feet.



No...

Decision Height is the height above the touchdown zone elevation.

Decision Altitude is the MSL altitude of the Decision Height.

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

DECISION ALTITUDE/DECISION HEIGHT [ICAO]- A specified altitude or height (A/H)
in the precision approach at which a missed approach must be initiated if the
required visual reference to continue the approach has not been established.

Note 1: Decision altitude [DA] is referenced to mean sea level [MSL] and
decision height [DH] is referenced to the threshold elevation.

Note 2: The required visual reference means that section of the visual aids
or of the approach area which should have been in view for sufficient time
for the pilot to have made an assessment of the aircraft position and rate
of change of position, in relation to the desired flight path.

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...

No, I mean decision height. The decision height for the S-ILS 36 is 882
MSL, the height above touchdown is 200 feet.


No...

Decision Height is the height above the touchdown zone elevation.

Decision Altitude is the MSL altitude of the Decision Height.

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

DECISION ALTITUDE/DECISION HEIGHT [ICAO]- A specified altitude
or height (A/H) in the precision approach at which a missed approach must
be
initiated if the required visual reference to continue the approach has
not been
established.

Note 1: Decision altitude [DA] is referenced to mean sea level [MSL] and
decision height [DH] is referenced to the threshold elevation.

Note 2: The required visual reference means that section of the visual
aids or of the approach area which should have been in view for sufficient
time for the pilot to have made an assessment of the aircraft position and
rate of change of position, in relation to the desired flight path.


That's an ICAO definition, we're talking about a US IAP. See NACO TPP pages
A1 and F2.

* Steven P. McNicoll :
That's an ICAO definition, we're talking about a US IAP. See NACO TPP pages
A1 and F2.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/frntmatter.pdf (page 2, bottom)

Hm indeed. What ICAO calls DA is called DH there. By mistake?

Do you have an URL for the TPP pages you referenced? I couldn't find
them.


Best regards,
Daniel

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:35:42 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
.. .

Just so I understand exactly what you are saying, is it your position
that,
when using DEPRE as the IAF for the purpose of starting this SIAP, if one
is inbound, the legal minimum altitude at DEPRE is 2141'?


There is no Minimum Descent Altitude on an ILS approach, there is instead a
Decision Height. AWI123 is level at 3000 and five miles south of DEPRE, on
the localizer, when cleared for the approach. The aircraft leaves 3000
about 2.7 miles south of DEPRE, where it intercepts the glideslope. It
follows the glideslope down, crossing DEPRE at 2141 MSL, to the decision
height of 882 MSL. From that point it will either complete the approach
visually or execute the missed approach procedure.


Your answer is not responsive to my question, but perhaps I did not write
clearly. So I will try to be more clear:

I did not mean to ask you about an MDA for this ILS approach. Nor am I
concerned about how the approach is flown from the FAF to DH.

I ask how your procedure without radar vectors satisfies the requirement
that this approach begin at an IAF.

I thought you indicated that DEPRE was the applicable IAF to satisfy this
requirement. Was that an incorrect assumption?

If DEPRE is the applicable IAF, it must have a minimum crossing altitude.
Since traffic is passing DEPRE at 2141', I would have expected that you
would think that is legal when DEPRE is being used as the IAF from which
this approach begins. Is that your position?

If DEPRE is not the applicable IAF, then I don't see how your procedure
meets the requirements of the 7110.65 that a non-vectored approach begin at
an IAF.

--------------------------------------

Out of curiousity, does the Green Bay TRACON have the appropriate radar
equipment and screen markings to legally issue radar vectors to final for
this approach?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:35:42 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
.. .

Just so I understand exactly what you are saying, is it your position
that,
when using DEPRE as the IAF for the purpose of starting this SIAP, if one
is inbound, the legal minimum altitude at DEPRE is 2141'?


There is no Minimum Descent Altitude on an ILS approach, there is instead a
Decision Height. AWI123 is level at 3000 and five miles south of DEPRE, on
the localizer, when cleared for the approach. The aircraft leaves 3000
about 2.7 miles south of DEPRE, where it intercepts the glideslope. It
follows the glideslope down, crossing DEPRE at 2141 MSL, to the decision
height of 882 MSL. From that point it will either complete the approach
visually or execute the missed approach procedure.


I didn't see your response of mine to this post of yours. Perhaps you
missed it, or I missed your response. In any event, here it is again:

=======================================

Your answer is not responsive to my question, but perhaps I did not write
clearly. So I will try to be more clear:

I did not mean to ask you about an MDA for this ILS approach. Nor am I
concerned about how the approach is flown from the FAF to DH.

I ask how your procedure without radar vectors satisfies the requirement
that this approach begin at an IAF.

I thought you indicated that DEPRE was the applicable IAF to satisfy this
requirement. Was that an incorrect assumption?

If DEPRE is the applicable IAF, it must have a minimum crossing altitude.
Since traffic is passing DEPRE at 2141', I would have expected that you
would think that is legal when DEPRE is being used as the IAF from which
this approach begins. Is that your position?

If DEPRE is not the applicable IAF, then I don't see how your procedure
meets the requirements of the 7110.65 that a non-vectored approach begin at
an IAF.
========================


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)