Gas Prices -- Help at last?

Dave S wrote:

OOOPS... Not YOU.. the OTHER MATT... whiting or something or other..

Whiting, if you are following this, my retort was for you, and you alone.

Dave

Matt Barrow wrote:

"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...


Matt Barrow wrote:

WHINE !! BITCH!! MOAN!! NOT IN MY BACK YARD!! I want gas! I want
cheap gas!! I want this I want that!

Grow the **** up, America!!


Matt, let me know when you can debate something without resorting to
personal attacks or insults, then I will debate it with you.



Well, Dave, my apologies because my last point was a general take, not
directed to you (notice I said' Grow up America", not "Grow up,
Dave"). I notice you have very strong leanings and understanding
toward free markets. I'm not concerned about you selling short :~)

I do know I tend to lose it when people make foolish caveats
especially ones that are logical fallacies such as "without all this
regulation we'd be in (insert Armageddon class crisis)".


And.. I don't work in academia. I actually work for a living.



That helps, but those in academia consider that they "work for a
living", too. What's more, working for a living is no basis for
understanding how markets work. Even many managers don't "get it".
Many are hired for their political acumen, not for their knowledge or
leadership qualities.


I also dont consider myself whining about prices for gas. I pay for
it as I go. Its nice to have enough disposable income to do so
without flinching.

The refineries ARE in my back yard. They pay their share in property
taxes to the localities and school systems. They also provide jobs to
the economy. I'd love for them to expand, and provide more capital to
our infrastructure here. But not at the cost of polluting unnecessarily.



Yes, indeed. Thing is, like so much of life, regulation stopped having
a goal (reduced pollution) and became a goal in itself (i.e.,
self-serving bureaucracies). For example, years ago, when the coal
fired power plants were first required to install "scrubbers", they
regulations stipulated levels caps for emissions. They were also
ordered to install specific equipment to reach those levels. As it
was, the equipment mandated was egregiously costly and maintenance was
enormous. It also created a lot of toxic waste to be disposed of. It
turned out that emissions could have been as good or better using
other means of emissions reductions with less cost and less
maintenance. That's why I'm very skeptical of the fallacies that
"without all these regulations, ...blah, blah, blah).



Anyways, unless you have something meaningful to contribute to this
rather than unwarranted insults, I will leave you to your rant.



My rant addresses so many people that become enamored with a pristine
world and completely miss the points that, first, every advantage has
it's costs, that actions have consequences including "Unintended
Consequences".

I also notice a strong propensity for those who demand a risk free
life, a pristine world, and great prosperity, are often the most vocal
when their actions play out. It's an attitude that is understandable
for children, but inexcusable for adults. Hence my admonishment to
Americans in general to "grow up". Such childish perspective is
becoming the rule, rather than the exception. That there is no Santa
Claus is apparently missed by wayyy to many.

Rant to continue later :~)

Dave, I consider you an ally, not an adversary in this topic. If my
take was fuzzy (duh!), my apologies.




Well, Staten, then you are pretty incompetent at using a news reader as
I didn't write anything included above. And I'm also smart enough not
to top post.


Matt

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
Matt Barrow wrote:
"JohnH" wrote in message
...

"In 1981, the U.S. had 324 refineries with a total capacity of
processing 18.6 million barrels of crude per day. Today just 149
refineries have
a daily capacity of 16.8 million barrels."

If we truly have a refinery shortage, why aren't people waiting in
lines to buy fuel?
Read the article; it states _why_ quite clearly.

It also gives a good picture of the trend.

Must have missed that - perhaps it was buired in all that stupid whiney
"banana" tripe.

So - again - what is the reason we aren't waiting in lines?

Maybe because the US imports refined FINISHED products (much more costly
to buy as well as transport). Maybe if your weren't so stupid and whiney
you'd have discovered that for yourself.


Not really true. The US only imports about 14% of its gasoline and US
gasoline production is up *not* down as your article implies.

Mike
MU-2

Matt Whiting wrote:
anyway. Lines will appear in the very near future, just as rolling
blackouts and brownouts began to appear a few years ago. We are running
out of energy generating capacity,

actually we weren't running out of energy generating capacity,
but the analogy is good since this is another example of
price gouging...

--Sylvain

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...


Maybe because the US imports refined FINISHED products (much more costly
to buy as well as transport).

Not really true. The US only imports about 14% of its gasoline and US
gasoline production is up *not* down as your article implies.

The article doesn't make a distinction about type of fuel, only refinery
capacity. Also, the gasoline to other fuels mix has increased, correct? I
suspect the US produces much less heating oil than in the past, most heating
being done with natural gas or electric.

As well, what amount of finished product did we import in the past? AIUI,
it was zero until the past few years.
--
Matt

---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Sylvain" wrote in message
...
Matt Whiting wrote:
anyway. Lines will appear in the very near future, just as rolling
blackouts and brownouts began to appear a few years ago. We are running
out of energy generating capacity,

actually we weren't running out of energy generating capacity,

We're not "running out", but our generating capacity is now running
something like 96% as opposed to running 50-60% in the past.

Would you run your engine near redline for an extended period?

but the analogy is good since this is another example of
price gouging...

In deference to those who cite me for too often being harsh, I'll just say
your grasp of the fuels market is distinctly abysmal.

Matt Barrow wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:uCN2f.420540$x96.326280@attbi_s72...

You still don't get it. The number of refineries doesn't matter...the
output does.

Actually, we do a agree on that.

That's good! It's nice to see people get along and agree on something.

Here's some numbers you can pick apart:

"In 1981, the U.S. had 324 refineries with a total capacity of processing
18.6 million barrels of crude per day. Today just 149 refineries have a
daily capacity of 16.8 million barrels."

Well, they said *output* is the important thing. Another post said that in 1981
the refineries were producing at 81% of capacity and they are now producing at
96% of capacity. That means that production has increased by 1.055 million
barrels of crude per day.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

Matt Barrow wrote:

As well, what amount of finished product did we import in the past? AIUI,
it was zero until the past few years.

Certainly not zero. Hess (for one) has been importing gasoline since the mid
70s. Not sure when BP got their shoe in the door.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

"Matt Barrow" wrote:

... I tend to lose it when people make foolish caveats especially
ones that are logical fallacies such as "without all this regulation
we'd be in (insert Armageddon class crisis)".

...or "without all this regulation we'd be in (insert free market
Utopia)."

Gee!! I've been a student of free markets (Chicago, Austrian, Hoover
under Sowell, Georgetown under Williams) for 25 years and I don't
recall any of them making anything even remotely similar to that
claim. If anything, it claims the opposite and refers to it as
"chaotic" and a great struggle to stay competitive.

As I'm sure you know, I'm not speaking of serious free market thinkers,
but rather the simplistic knee jerks who imagine that we'd have plenty
of cheap gasoline with no downside consequences if we simply eliminated
environmental protection regulations. My point was that such
black/white thinking is common on both sides of the environmental
protection issue.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

If we truly have a refinery shortage, why aren't people waiting in lines
to buy fuel?

Because the price of gas has doubled?

Funny how that works...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:
If we truly have a refinery shortage, why aren't people waiting in
lines to buy fuel?

Because the price of gas has doubled?


"Everywhere, every day on the radio, television, and in the newspapers, all
I
hear is how the "Record Price of Oil" is killing America.

Yet, strangely, Americans keep driving *more*. And I don't see anyone
flying less."

- you!


Funny how that works...

indeed.