IFR/Flight Following -- ATC Preferences?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
t:


"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...

JFK, Jr. was not required by regulation to use flight following...but
the outcome of his flight might have been drastically different had
he done so.


How would have flight following made a difference? He didn't run into
an unseen airplane.



The NTSB report refers to a descent into the water caused by spatial
disorientation.

A simple Altitude Alert from a controller could have reminded him to look
at his altimiter and VSI and realize that he was pointed into the water
instead of into the Horizon, potentially yeilding different results.

Even if he didn't look, but just pulled or powered up, it could have been a
life saver.

From what I hear on the radio, flight following is often a lot more than
just traffic alerts...

"Judah" wrote in message
. ..

The NTSB report refers to a descent into the water caused by spatial
disorientation.

A simple Altitude Alert from a controller could have reminded him to look
at his altimiter and VSI and realize that he was pointed into the water
instead of into the Horizon, potentially yeilding different results.


Would an altitude alert end his disorientation? Why would the controller
issue an altitude alert? He was operating VFR, he wasn't required to hold
any particular altitude.



From what I hear on the radio, flight following is often a lot more than
just traffic alerts...


Like what? What do you hear on the radio?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
nk.net:


"Judah" wrote in message
. ..

The NTSB report refers to a descent into the water caused by spatial
disorientation.

A simple Altitude Alert from a controller could have reminded him to
look at his altimiter and VSI and realize that he was pointed into
the water instead of into the Horizon, potentially yeilding different
results.


Would an altitude alert end his disorientation? Why would the
controller issue an altitude alert? He was operating VFR, he wasn't
required to hold any particular altitude.

It might have. It largely depends on the exact nature of his disorientation
- which neither of us know for sure.

From what I hear on the radio, flight following is often a lot more
than just traffic alerts...


Like what? What do you hear on the radio?

Everything from weather and turbulence reports to personal greetings and
brief personal conversations - even sports score announcements! Many
controllers seem friendly and are happy to assist pilots in any way they
can.

"Judah" wrote in message
. ..

It might have. It largely depends on the exact nature of his
disorientation
- which neither of us know for sure.


Why would the controller issue the altitude alert?



Everything from weather and turbulence reports to personal greetings and
brief personal conversations - even sports score announcements! Many
controllers seem friendly and are happy to assist pilots in any way they
can.


But that's unrelated to flight following, that comes from just being on the
frequency.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:


"Judah" wrote in message
. ..

It might have. It largely depends on the exact nature of his
disorientation
- which neither of us know for sure.


Why would the controller issue the altitude alert?

I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I believe a controller will
issue an alert if a pilot is descending faster than 1700 fpm. I also
suspect that in the Boston area, a pilot might be instructed to advise
prior to altitude changes, creating a query if he had not. I agree that
an official Altitude Alert such as those you might get for being 200'
below an assigned altitude on an IFR route would not apply here. But I
have been asked to confirm airport in sight when descending VFR with
flight following and even this could have woken JFK Jr. up...

It might not have made a difference. Or it might have.

Everything from weather and turbulence reports to personal greetings
and brief personal conversations - even sports score announcements!
Many controllers seem friendly and are happy to assist pilots in any
way they can.


But that's unrelated to flight following, that comes from just being
on the frequency.

I'm not sure I get your point here. Do most pilots follow frequencies
as they traverse sectors so that they can listen for other people's
pireps and traffic alerts? I always found it easier to just ask for
advisories.

Judah wrote:



I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I believe a controller will
issue an alert if a pilot is descending faster than 1700 fpm.

Not while you are VFR.

Newps wrote in news:j7-dnWQG7ogqsPneRVn-
:



Judah wrote:



I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I believe a controller will
issue an alert if a pilot is descending faster than 1700 fpm.

Not while you are VFR.

Hmmm. I remember a specific instance during my VFR training that an
instructor warned me to be careful about coming down too fast because it
would cause an alerts with ATC... For some reason, since I know you to be a
controller, I have more faith in your response.

That's what I love about this business... There are so many people who
claim to be experts who take information about a situation, generalize it,
and turn it into definitive truth for all situations.

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up.

"Judah" wrote in message
. ..

I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I believe a controller will
issue an alert if a pilot is descending faster than 1700 fpm.


Rate of descent has nothing to do with it. The controller is required to
issue an alert if he is aware the aircraft is at an altitude which, in the
controller's judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain or
obstructions. Since Kennedy was over water it seems unlikely terrain or
obstructions were a factor.



I also suspect that in the Boston area, a pilot might be instructed to
advise
prior to altitude changes, creating a query if he had not. I agree that
an official Altitude Alert such as those you might get for being 200'
below an assigned altitude on an IFR route would not apply here. But I
have been asked to confirm airport in sight when descending VFR with
flight following and even this could have woken JFK Jr. up...


And if he'd been asleep a wakeup call may have saved him, but I don't think
a low altitude alert would have relieved him of vertigo.



I'm not sure I get your point here. Do most pilots follow frequencies
as they traverse sectors so that they can listen for other people's
pireps and traffic alerts? I always found it easier to just ask for
advisories.


The point is those things are unrelated to flight following.

JFK JR stacked the deck against himself in so many aspects that he
pretty much doomed himself and his pax before they broke ground.

The what/if scenario's are plentiful

What if:

He delayed his departure for the next morning?
He offered some poor starving CFI to go with him for a price?
He put the wing leveler back on his a/p when he started his descent?
He followed the coastline and flew to HYA and waited for the morning?
He followed the coastline to HYA and took a ferry?
He hadn't just had a cast off, was tired? was perhaps taking painkillers?
How many martini's did he have at lunch?

Accidents are chains of bad judgements, usually no one link in the chain
is going to cause it but when you get so many mistakes and bad judgement
in the chain then you pretty much leave yourself no options.

It was a shame, I don't think he was a bad guy, and if I had $100 for
every time someone asked me as a pilot "what happened with JFK Jr?" I
could have had my commercial ticket now and paid for.

Robert


Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Judah" wrote in message
. ..

I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I believe a controller will
issue an alert if a pilot is descending faster than 1700 fpm.



Rate of descent has nothing to do with it. The controller is required to
issue an alert if he is aware the aircraft is at an altitude which, in the
controller's judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain or
obstructions. Since Kennedy was over water it seems unlikely terrain or
obstructions were a factor.



I also suspect that in the Boston area, a pilot might be instructed to
advise
prior to altitude changes, creating a query if he had not. I agree that
an official Altitude Alert such as those you might get for being 200'
below an assigned altitude on an IFR route would not apply here. But I
have been asked to confirm airport in sight when descending VFR with
flight following and even this could have woken JFK Jr. up...



And if he'd been asleep a wakeup call may have saved him, but I don't think
a low altitude alert would have relieved him of vertigo.



I'm not sure I get your point here. Do most pilots follow frequencies
as they traverse sectors so that they can listen for other people's
pireps and traffic alerts? I always found it easier to just ask for
advisories.



The point is those things are unrelated to flight following.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:

The point is those things are unrelated to flight following.

The original point was that had he had flight following, he might have
survived. You are assuming that the OP meant that a controller would have
alerted him. I interpret it that had he been listening to the frequency, he
might have been more aware of his surroundings and situation and taken
appropriate action.