IFR/Flight Following -- ATC Preferences?

JFK JR stacked the deck against himself in so many aspects that he
pretty much doomed himself and his pax before they broke ground.

The what/if scenario's are plentiful

What if:

He delayed his departure for the next morning?
He offered some poor starving CFI to go with him for a price?
He put the wing leveler back on his a/p when he started his descent?
He followed the coastline and flew to HYA and waited for the morning?
He followed the coastline to HYA and took a ferry?
He hadn't just had a cast off, was tired? was perhaps taking painkillers?
How many martini's did he have at lunch?

Accidents are chains of bad judgements, usually no one link in the chain
is going to cause it but when you get so many mistakes and bad judgement
in the chain then you pretty much leave yourself no options.

It was a shame, I don't think he was a bad guy, and if I had $100 for
every time someone asked me as a pilot "what happened with JFK Jr?" I
could have had my commercial ticket now and paid for.

Robert


Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Judah" wrote in message
. ..

I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I believe a controller will
issue an alert if a pilot is descending faster than 1700 fpm.



Rate of descent has nothing to do with it. The controller is required to
issue an alert if he is aware the aircraft is at an altitude which, in the
controller's judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain or
obstructions. Since Kennedy was over water it seems unlikely terrain or
obstructions were a factor.



I also suspect that in the Boston area, a pilot might be instructed to
advise
prior to altitude changes, creating a query if he had not. I agree that
an official Altitude Alert such as those you might get for being 200'
below an assigned altitude on an IFR route would not apply here. But I
have been asked to confirm airport in sight when descending VFR with
flight following and even this could have woken JFK Jr. up...



And if he'd been asleep a wakeup call may have saved him, but I don't think
a low altitude alert would have relieved him of vertigo.



I'm not sure I get your point here. Do most pilots follow frequencies
as they traverse sectors so that they can listen for other people's
pireps and traffic alerts? I always found it easier to just ask for
advisories.



The point is those things are unrelated to flight following.

He delayed his departure for the next morning?
He offered some poor starving CFI to go with him for a price?
He put the wing leveler back on his a/p when he started his descent?
He followed the coastline and flew to HYA and waited for the morning?
He followed the coastline to HYA and took a ferry?
He hadn't just had a cast off, was tired? was perhaps taking painkillers?
How many martini's did he have at lunch?

It would have adversely impacted his ego.

Ego gets people killed.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:

The point is those things are unrelated to flight following.

The original point was that had he had flight following, he might have
survived. You are assuming that the OP meant that a controller would have
alerted him. I interpret it that had he been listening to the frequency, he
might have been more aware of his surroundings and situation and taken
appropriate action.

"Judah" wrote in message
.. .

The original point was that had he had flight following, he might have
survived. You are assuming that the OP meant that a controller would have
alerted him. I interpret it that had he been listening to the frequency,
he
might have been more aware of his surroundings and situation and taken
appropriate action.


So flight following can prevent spatial disorientation?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:


"Judah" wrote in message
.. .

The original point was that had he had flight following, he might
have survived. You are assuming that the OP meant that a controller
would have alerted him. I interpret it that had he been listening to
the frequency, he
might have been more aware of his surroundings and situation and
taken appropriate action.


So flight following can prevent spatial disorientation?



No, but it can prevent you from having your altimeter set incorrectly so
that you fly into the water when you think you are 500' above it...

Judah wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:


The point is those things are unrelated to flight following.


The original point was that had he had flight following, he might have
survived. You are assuming that the OP meant that a controller would have
alerted him. I interpret it that had he been listening to the frequency, he
might have been more aware of his surroundings and situation and taken
appropriate action.

I don't think this is true at all. If anything, listening to the
frequency would have detracted from his concentration on flying the
airplane, a task that in retrospect he wasn't capable of performing in
the prevailing conditions. I don't think adding to his mental workload
would have contributed to better flying.


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote in
:

Judah wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:


The point is those things are unrelated to flight following.


The original point was that had he had flight following, he might
have survived. You are assuming that the OP meant that a controller
would have alerted him. I interpret it that had he been listening to
the frequency, he might have been more aware of his surroundings and
situation and taken appropriate action.

I don't think this is true at all. If anything, listening to the
frequency would have detracted from his concentration on flying the
airplane, a task that in retrospect he wasn't capable of performing
in
the prevailing conditions. I don't think adding to his mental
workload would have contributed to better flying.


Matt


Perhaps if he were listening to the frequency, he would have been given
the correct altimeter setting in a handoff and realized that he was
about to descend into the water.

Or perhaps the controller could have advised him that the weather at
the
airport was below Night VFR minimums and he would have diverted safely
to another airport that was safe.

Or perhaps his wife sitting next to him would have stopped bitching at
him for being late for their wedding plans long enough to let him
listen
to the frequency and fly the plane.

Or perhaps talk on the frequency would have woken him up from his
"zoning out" because he was tired and on medication.

Or perhaps he was suicidal and the whole thing would was done on
purpose.

Who knows what the conditions were or what situations might have
improved it. Your guess is as good as mine. But that's kinda the point,
isn't it...

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:

And if he'd been asleep a wakeup call may have saved him, but I don't
think a low altitude alert would have relieved him of vertigo.

BTW: How do yo know he had vertigo? Prove it.

"Judah" wrote in message
. ..

BTW: How do yo know he had vertigo? Prove it.


There is no proof, that was the conclusion of the NTSB.

Judah wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
nk.net:


"Judah" wrote in message
8...

The NTSB report refers to a descent into the water caused by spatial
disorientation.

A simple Altitude Alert from a controller could have reminded him to
look at his altimiter and VSI and realize that he was pointed into
the water instead of into the Horizon, potentially yeilding different
results.


Would an altitude alert end his disorientation? Why would the
controller issue an altitude alert? He was operating VFR, he wasn't
required to hold any particular altitude.


It might have. It largely depends on the exact nature of his disorientation
- which neither of us know for sure.


From what I hear on the radio, flight following is often a lot more
than just traffic alerts...


Like what? What do you hear on the radio?


Everything from weather and turbulence reports to personal greetings and
brief personal conversations - even sports score announcements! Many
controllers seem friendly and are happy to assist pilots in any way they
can.

I think Steven's point though is that they can't fly the airplane for
the pilot, which was essentially the original suggestion.

Matt