Q about lost comms on weird clearance

Paul Tomblin wrote:

No, I'm pretty sure there wasn't an EFC.

So, in the future, would it be valuable to expect an EFC and ask for
one if you don't receive it? (A sincere question from a low-time IFR
pilot G)

--
Peter







----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

"Peter R." wrote in message
...

So, in the future, would it be valuable to expect an EFC and ask for
one if you don't receive it? (A sincere question from a low-time IFR
pilot G)


An EFC does not have to be issued if no delay is expected.

When given a clearance to a point enroute that is not your destination you
should also receive an EFC - just in case of lost comms - and ask for one if
not provided.
I doubt this would only be a Canadian procedure.
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Peter R." wrote in message
...

So, in the future, would it be valuable to expect an EFC and ask for
one if you don't receive it? (A sincere question from a low-time IFR
pilot G)


An EFC does not have to be issued if no delay is expected.

"Ross" wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...

When given a clearance to a point enroute that is not your destination you
should also receive an EFC - just in case of lost comms - and ask for one
if not provided.
I doubt this would only be a Canadian procedure.


FAA Order 7110.65N Air Traffic Control

Chapter 4. IFR

Section 6. Holding Aircraft

4-6-1. CLEARANCE TO HOLDING FIX

Consider operational factors such as length of delay, holding airspace
limitations, navigational aids, altitude, meteorological conditions when
necessary to clear an aircraft to a fix other than the destination airport.
Issue the following:

a. Clearance limit (if any part of the route beyond a clearance
limit differs from the last routing cleared, issue the route the pilot can
expect beyond the clearance limit).

PHRASEOLOGY-
EXPECT FURTHER CLEARANCE VIA (routing).

EXAMPLE-
"Expect further clearance via direct Stillwater V-O-R, Victor Two
Twenty-Six Snapy intersection, direct Newark."

b. Holding instructions.

1. Holding instructions may be eliminated when you inform the
pilot that no delay is expected.

2. When the pattern is charted, you may omit all holding
instructions except the charted holding direction and the statement "as
published." Always issue complete holding instructions when the pilot
requests them.

NOTE-
The most generally used holding patterns are depicted on U.S.
Government or commercially produced low/high altitude en route, area, and
STAR Charts.

PHRASEOLOGY-
CLEARED TO (fix), HOLD (direction), AS PUBLISHED,

or

CLEARED TO (fix), NO DELAY EXPECTED.

c. EFC. Do not specify this item if no delay is expected.

1. When additional holding is expected at any other fix in your
facility's area, state the fix and your best estimate of the additional
delay. When more than one fix is involved, state the total additional en
route delay (omit specific fixes).

NOTE-
Additional delay information is not used to determine pilot action
in the event of two-way communications failure. Pilots are expected to
predicate their actions solely on the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.185.

PHRASEOLOGY-
EXPECT FURTHER CLEARANCE (time),

and if required,

ANTICIPATE ADDITIONAL (time in minutes/hours) MINUTE/HOUR DELAY AT
(fix),

or

ANTICIPATE ADDITIONAL (time in minutes/hours) MINUTE/HOUR EN ROUTE
DELAY.

EXAMPLE-
1. "Expect further clearance one niner two zero, anticipate
additional three zero minute delay at Sweet."

2. "Expect further clearance one five one zero, anticipate
additional three zero minute en route delay."

2. When additional holding is expected in an approach control
area, state the total additional terminal delay.

PHRASEOLOGY-
EXPECT FURTHER CLEARANCE (time),

and if required,

ANTICIPATE ADDITIONAL (time in minutes/hours) MINUTE/HOUR TERMINAL
DELAY.

3. TERMINAL. When terminal delays exist or are expected, inform
the appropriate center or approach control facility so that the information
can be forwarded to arrival aircraft.

4. When delay is expected, issue items in subparas a and b at
least 5 minutes before the aircraft is estimated to reach the clearance
limit. If the traffic situation requires holding an aircraft that is less
than 5 minutes from the holding fix, issue these items immediately.

NOTE-
1. The AIM indicates that pilots should start speed reduction when
3 minutes or less from the holding fix. The additional 2 minutes contained
in the 5-minute requirement are necessary to compensate for different
pilot/controller ETAS at the holding fix, minor differences in clock times,
and provision for sufficient planning and reaction times.

2. When holding is necessary, the phrase "delay indefinite" should
be used when an accurate estimate of the delay time and the reason for the
delay cannot immediately be determined; i.e., disabled aircraft on the
runway, terminal or center sector saturation, weather below landing
minimums, etc. In any event, every attempt should be made to provide the
pilot with the best possible estimate of his/her delay time and the reason
for the delay. Controllers/supervisors should consult, as appropriate, with
personnel (other sectors, weather forecasters, the airport management, other
facilities, etc.) who can best provide this information.

PHRASEOLOGY-
DELAY INDEFINITE, (reason if known), EXPECT FURTHER CLEARANCE
(time). (After determining the reason for the delay, advise the pilot as
soon as possible.)

EXAMPLE-
"Cleared to Drewe, hold west, as published, expect further
clearance via direct Sidney V-O-R one three one five, anticipate additional
two zero minute delay at Woody."

"Cleared to Aston, hold west on Victor two twenty-five, seven mile
leg, left turns, expect further clearance one niner two zero, anticipate
additional one five minute terminal delay."

"Cleared to Wayne, no delay expected."

"Cleared to Wally, hold north, as published, delay indefinite,
snow removal in progress, expect further clearance one one three zero."

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" said:
PHRASEOLOGY-
EXPECT FURTHER CLEARANCE VIA (routing).

Thinking it through, I think what I got was something like "cleared to
GEE, expect further clearance as filed, no delay expected". That seems to
fit the phraseology in your post.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Hogshead now has a stated policy of Not Doing Business With ****wits, which
has saved me enormous amounts of heartache over the last few months.
I recommend it. -- James Wallis, Hogshead Publishing

In article
. rogers.com,
"Ross" wrote:

When given a clearance to a point enroute that is not your destination you
should also receive an EFC - just in case of lost comms - and ask for one if
not provided.

I believe Paul got what's known as a "paper hold". Since he was not in
radar contact, non-radar separation procedures needed to be used, which
means reserving airspace based on the pilot reporting various fixes
along the route. But, the controller anticipated establishing radar
contact before Paul reached the clearance limit and would then be able
to issue a clearance to the destination based on the less onerous radar
separation rules.

There was no need to issue an EFC time, because the expectation was that
there would be no delay. I'm not sure what the correct phrasology is,
but it's effectively, "Expect further clearance upon reaching the fix".

That being said, Ross is correct about asking for clarification. If you
think you should have gotten an EFC and you didn't (or there's anything
else about your clearance that doesn't make sense to you), ask the
controller.

Roy Smith wrote:


There was no need to issue an EFC time, because the expectation was that
there would be no delay. I'm not sure what the correct phrasology is,
but it's effectively, "Expect further clearance upon reaching the fix".

Which is the same as an EFC time. So one way or the other you know what
to do if you lose comm.

"Newps" wrote in message
news:KiTSb.148223$Rc4.1190662@attbi_s54...

Which is the same as an EFC time. So one way or the other you know what
to do if you lose comm.


No, an EFC time is the time a pilot can expect to receive clearance beyond a
clearance limit.

Ross wrote:
When given a clearance to a point enroute that is not your destination you
should also receive an EFC - just in case of lost comms - and ask for one if
not provided.

You should refuse holding instructions without an EFC. Holding
instructions without an EFC constitutes an incomplete clearance.

"Newps" wrote in message
news:sgTSb.153540$nt4.710088@attbi_s51...

You should refuse holding instructions without an EFC. Holding
instructions without an EFC constitutes an incomplete clearance.


Not in the US it doesn't.