Garmin 396 Glitch??

Jonathan Goodish wrote:


You're right, XM provides more, but not $30 more per month, much less $50.


Not sure that I agree with your assessment. I subscribe to the $50 XM
option and have found almost every element provided to be very useful.
Not to mention that Baron seems to do a decent job with data quality--I
wonder where the data from ADS-B comes from.

Nexrad and other weather comes from the government.



I just don't understand the whining that I hear everywhere about the
cost of XM weather. In an era where folks pay close to $100/month for
cable television, give a cell phone to every pre-teen in their
household, and drive huge SUVs, I can't understand where the pain of
paying $30-$50/month for weather uplink is coming from. It's not for
everyone, but frequent flyers can certainly benefit from it.

Why would you pay $50 per month when just about everything you get for
that $50 will be free? Not to mention the people that wouldn't pay a
nickel for weather now get it for free.




In addition, ADS-B doesn't provide an entertainment services like XM
radio, for those who might use it.

I don't pay anything extra for XM in the plane right now. I simply take
one of my radios with me when I fly.


I have an XM radio in my plane now. Although XM in the 396 works it is
a secondary function and as such is not all that convenient to use.


Actually, I think it's pretty intuitive. Garmin did a good job with the
integration, though it's not quite as convenient for things like channel
selection.

Bingo, once you've had an XM in the plane the 396 is really cumbersome.



Until those "hundreds of transmitters" are live and active, ADS-B is
pretty much moot. I doubt in 2-3 years we will see widespread ADS-B
available as we have XM available today. And, I wonder what happens to
your data if you're out of range of a transmitter?

You're right, it is a chicken and egg problem. However it is already in
place and running for the entire east coast. In 2-3 years I'll bet the
entire country is covered. And one of the driving factors will be
traffic information, something XM does not and cannot provide.

In article ,
Newps wrote:
Nexrad and other weather comes from the government.

Some of the raw data comes from the government, but not all of it.
Lightning detection, for example, is not provided by the government.
Regardless of where the data comes from, the important element isn't the
data, it's how that data is processed. NWS and various private weather
companies, such as Baron, have their own algorithms and processes for
weather data. The results, even on a NEXRAD reflectivity display, can
be drastically different.



Why would you pay $50 per month when just about everything you get for
that $50 will be free? Not to mention the people that wouldn't pay a
nickel for weather now get it for free.

What is "just about everything?" Personally, I would pay the $50 per
month if the product is better and more reliable. At this point, the XM
service is well known and is used both inside and outside of aviation.
I have yet to actually hear a first-hand detailed account of ADS-B
weather products.



You're right, it is a chicken and egg problem. However it is already in
place and running for the entire east coast. In 2-3 years I'll bet the
entire country is covered. And one of the driving factors will be
traffic information, something XM does not and cannot provide.

Where are the receivers? As far as I can tell, the system is still in
the experimental stage for all practical purposes.

Traffic information will be nice, but I never thought that TIS was worth
the investment because there were areas which simply weren't covered.
Products like SkyWatch are independent of any ground-based facility, so
are much more effective, but require a substatial up-front investment.

The bottom line is that the system is still a pipe dream for all
practical purposes. The reality is that manufacturers aren't going to
develop and mass-market receivers until the deployment is substantial
and there is a demand for them. The time between substantial deployment
and mass demand is going to be more than 2-3 years... I highly doubt the
deployment will be done in 2-3 years, especially given the fact that it
is a government project.

The other issue that concerns me is that there is no free lunch. ADS-B
and every other government service requires funding. That funding is
going to have to come from somewhere, whether it's a user fee,
subscription fee, fuel tax, etc. One way or the other, YOU will be
paying for it even if you don't use it. It will not be "free."



JKG

Jonathan Goodish wrote:
NWS and various private weather
companies, such as Baron, have their own algorithms and processes for
weather data. The results, even on a NEXRAD reflectivity display, can
be drastically different.

For the kind of weather avoidance I need, I'm not convinced the differences are
significant. I'm going to treat any kind of weather radar return pretty much the
same, and assume there are errors in the presentation.

What is "just about everything?" Personally, I would pay the $50 per
month if the product is better and more reliable. At this point, the XM
service is well known and is used both inside and outside of aviation.
I have yet to actually hear a first-hand detailed account of ADS-B
weather products.

I have a 396, and I've taken a demo ride in an ADS-B equipped airplane. To my
eyes, the weather presentation is about equivalent. Maybe I'm not as
discriminating as you are. NCDOT is sponsoring some ADS-B equipped private
aircraft, and the price of admission is that you have to put on some seminars
and give people demonstration rides. Check the NCDOT web site for announcements
of seminars and demos.

Where are the receivers? As far as I can tell, the system is still in
the experimental stage for all practical purposes.

http://www.garmin.com/products/gdl90/

A GDL90 and an MX20 display is all you need. About $15K. Available today on the
east coast. No subscription fees.

Traffic information will be nice, but I never thought that TIS was worth
the investment because there were areas which simply weren't covered.
Products like SkyWatch are independent of any ground-based facility, so
are much more effective, but require a substatial up-front investment.

Mode-S TIS was a chimera. TIS-B (the traffic component of ADS-B) is available
wherever ADS-B is available. Nobody knows where that will be or what the rollout
schedule will be.


The bottom line is that the system is still a pipe dream for all
practical purposes. The reality is that manufacturers aren't going to
develop and mass-market receivers until the deployment is substantial
and there is a demand for them. The time between substantial deployment
and mass demand is going to be more than 2-3 years... I highly doubt the
deployment will be done in 2-3 years, especially given the fact that it
is a government project.

Agreed.

The other issue that concerns me is that there is no free lunch. ADS-B
and every other government service requires funding. That funding is
going to have to come from somewhere, whether it's a user fee,
subscription fee, fuel tax, etc. One way or the other, YOU will be
paying for it even if you don't use it. It will not be "free."

Agreed.

In article 1131633301.948148@sj-nntpcache-3, Dave Butler
wrote:
For the kind of weather avoidance I need, I'm not convinced the differences
are
significant. I'm going to treat any kind of weather radar return pretty much
the
same, and assume there are errors in the presentation.

If you're going to do that, why even have weather uplink? It's only
good if you can trust it, at least to some level.



I have a 396, and I've taken a demo ride in an ADS-B equipped airplane. To my
eyes, the weather presentation is about equivalent. Maybe I'm not as
discriminating as you are. NCDOT is sponsoring some ADS-B equipped private
aircraft, and the price of admission is that you have to put on some seminars
and give people demonstration rides. Check the NCDOT web site for
announcements
of seminars and demos.

What are we comparing, NEXRAD? NEXRAD is only a fraction of the XM
weather products, and is often not the most useful in my experience.
I'm not sure what else ADS-B provides, but I suspect that it doesn't
provide as comprehensive a picture as the XM systems.



http://www.garmin.com/products/gdl90/

A GDL90 and an MX20 display is all you need. About $15K. Available today on
the
east coast. No subscription fees.

The receiver is $8,000 without installation. I'd have to pay $50/month
for more than 10 years just to break even on the receiver hardware
alone, excluding installation, and excluding the MX20 and GPS (doesn't
make sense to do one without the other). Doesn't seem like a good deal
to me if all I want is weather. For the record, it's more than the
GLD69 which, at $5,000 for the hardware, also isn't a great deal when
you can buy the GPSmap 396 for $2,500 and have a backup GPS to boot.




Mode-S TIS was a chimera. TIS-B (the traffic component of ADS-B) is available
wherever ADS-B is available. Nobody knows where that will be or what the
rollout
schedule will be.

Thanks for making my point for me regarding ADS-B.





JKG

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

Thanks for making my point for me regarding ADS-B.

You're welcome. You seem surprised, as if we were engaged in some kind of
competition to see who's right, or something. Chill. I think I pretty much
agreed with most of the things you said.

Dave

In article 1131728434.247226@sj-nntpcache-5, Dave Butler
wrote:
Thanks for making my point for me regarding ADS-B.

You're welcome. You seem surprised, as if we were engaged in some kind of
competition to see who's right, or something. Chill. I think I pretty much
agreed with most of the things you said.

As far as I can tell, you injected yourself into this thread. My points
were in response to the assertions made by the original poster.


JKG

Jonathan Goodish wrote:
In article 1131728434.247226@sj-nntpcache-5, Dave Butler
wrote:

Thanks for making my point for me regarding ADS-B.

You're welcome. You seem surprised, as if we were engaged in some kind of
competition to see who's right, or something. Chill. I think I pretty much
agreed with most of the things you said.


As far as I can tell, you injected yourself into this thread. My points
were in response to the assertions made by the original poster.

Sorry to bother you. I was operating under the delusion that this was a public
forum.

Next time you're responding to someone other than me, please don't intersperse
your responses within the text that I wrote.

Thanks.

Dave

Newps wrote:


Nexrad and other weather comes from the government.

Ultimately of course, yes. For the moment, it's coming by way of WSI:
http://www.wsi.com/corporate/newsroo...ses/041904.asp

snip

Why would you pay $50 per month when just about everything you get for
that $50 will be free? Not to mention the people that wouldn't pay a
nickel for weather now get it for free.

The cost of admission will probably come down, but for the moment, it's about
$15K for the display and receiver. You may already have the display, but not
many do. The cost will come down only if the FAA signals that it is really
behind the program and will stick with it, so manufacturers know this isn't just
another microwave approach program, or mode-S TIS.

stuff about entertainment value of XM snipped

I'll just add that the entertainment value is zero for me.