Gear Warning

At 20:24 18 November 2005, Gordon Schubert wrote:
After this adventure, I spoke with 2 of our instructors
seeking advice on what I could do to prevent this from
happening again.

How about just doing your pre-landing checks properly.
You only need to check 4 things: water-ballast, U/C,
loose-articles(straps) and flaps. It takes seconds.

Mark Dickson wrote:
At 20:24 18 November 2005, Gordon Schubert wrote:
After this adventure, I spoke with 2 of our instructors
seeking advice on what I could do to prevent this from
happening again.

How about just doing your pre-landing checks properly.
You only need to check 4 things: water-ballast, U/C,
loose-articles(straps) and flaps. It takes seconds.

What about radio, speed, trim, spoiler, traffic and landing area?
No doubt checklists reduce the chance for errors, but it is naive to
believe they will always save your butt, cause when something goes
wrong, which result in distraction, first thing you'll forget/skip is
your check list...

Ramy (who found his gear alarm works as designed last flight)

At 00:18 19 November 2005, Ramy wrote:


What about radio, speed, trim, spoiler, traffic and
landing area?
No doubt checklists reduce the chance for errors, but
it is naive to
believe they will always save your butt, cause when
something goes
wrong, which result in distraction, first thing you'll
forget/skip is
your check list...


They don't need a checklist, they are part and parcel
of flying your glider. Change speed - trim, lookout
for other traffic - basic airmanship. If you need
a checklist for them you're going to have problems.

"Mark Dickson" wrote in message
...
At 00:18 19 November 2005, Ramy wrote:


What about radio, speed, trim, spoiler, traffic and
landing area?
No doubt checklists reduce the chance for errors, but
it is naive to
believe they will always save your butt, cause when
something goes
wrong, which result in distraction, first thing you'll
forget/skip is
your check list...


They don't need a checklist, they are part and parcel
of flying your glider. Change speed - trim, lookout
for other traffic - basic airmanship. If you need
a checklist for them you're going to have problems.



I agree traffic and landing area may not need checklist, but definitely
checking radio frequency and volume, trim for pattern speed and checking the
spoilers must be part of every landing checklist.

Ramy

At 07:18 20 November 2005, Ramy Yanetz wrote:

I agree traffic and landing area may not need checklist,
but definitely
checking radio frequency and volume, trim for pattern
speed and checking the
spoilers must be part of every landing checklist.

Ramy

Personally, they are not part of my pre-landing checks.
If I've been flying in icing conditions (wave) I'll
try the airbrakes on the way down, apart from that
it is not necessary to check them prior to landing.
I don't adopt the approach speed until just prior
to base leg and I always trim after changing speed
whenever I'm flying, so why have it as part of a checklist?
The radio check may be valid in the States but isn't
necessary in the UK.

Mark Dickson wrote:
At 07:18 20 November 2005, Ramy Yanetz wrote:

I agree traffic and landing area may not need checklist,
but definitely
checking radio frequency and volume, trim for pattern
speed and checking the
spoilers must be part of every landing checklist.

Ramy


Personally, they are not part of my pre-landing checks.
If I've been flying in icing conditions (wave) I'll
try the airbrakes on the way down, apart from that
it is not necessary to check them prior to landing.
I don't adopt the approach speed until just prior
to base leg and I always trim after changing speed
whenever I'm flying, so why have it as part of a checklist?

To ensure they do operate (freezing shut is not the only way for them to
fail) and to activate the gear warning device.

The radio check may be valid in the States but isn't
necessary in the UK.

Is that because the field frequency is the same as the one you use
during the flight, or because the glider fields you use don't use a
radio in the pattern? I'm assuming you'd use the radio at a regular
airport with mixed traffic.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

At 21:36 20 November 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:

To ensure they do operate (freezing shut is not the
only way for them to
fail) and to activate the gear warning device.

The radio check may be valid in the States but isn't
necessary in the UK.

Is that because the field frequency is the same as
the one you use
during the flight, or because the glider fields you
use don't use a
radio in the pattern? I'm assuming you'd use the radio
at a regular
airport with mixed traffic.


--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

If you checked your airbrakes at the DI and prior to
take-off, and you have not been flying in icing conditions,
they will open when you want them to. I've never heard
of airbrakes failing in flight and if they did so what?
You'll find out when you unlock them on base leg.
As for opening them to activate the gear warner, well
that sounds a bit Irish to me. How about carrying
out the gear part of the checks? The radio is not
a necessary part of pre-landing checks, I and any other
glider pilot in the UK would be very unpopular if they
landed at an airport; and if you were tempted to, the
radio call should be made well before the point at
which the pre-landing checks are carried out. (Most
glider pilots in the UK do not have RT licences and
so couldn't legally make the calls anyway).
The point I'm trying to make Eric is that for checks
to be effective and not missed, they should only include
those things that are really necessary to check. The
pre-landing checks I, and a lot of clubs use, are WULF:
waterballast, U/C, loose articles(including straps)
and flaps. In my opinion that is all you need to methodically
check to make a safe approach and landing, anything
else (apart maybe for radio in the States, as you obviously
do land at airports) is superfluous.
I also think these checks should be done prior to joining
the circuit, so that there are no distractions from
carrying them out and so that full concentration can
be given to flying the glider around the pattern and
looking out for other a/c on the ground and in the
air.

Mark

"Mark Dickson" wrote in message
...

If you checked your airbrakes at the DI and prior to
take-off, and you have not been flying in icing conditions,
they will open when you want them to. I've never heard
of airbrakes failing in flight and if they did so what?

I have had only one spoiler deploy. I was glad I checked them early because
it gave me the opportunity to extend the downwind a bit to compensate.

But, you are right. This is very rare. A more justifiable reason to check
the spoiler/airbrake is to insure your hand is on the right control. Once
you hand is on the airbrake control, keep it there through the rest of the
landing. Yes, I know, you should LOOK at a control before placing a hand on
it but we all know of accidents/incidents where the wrong control was
selected.

Bill Daniels

Mark, the radio check is not transmission check (although announcing
you are in the pattern is always a good idea), it is frequency check (I
often hear pilots calling their pattern on the wrong frequency they
used for air to air), and volume check to make sure your volume is not
down since your last low save. I am very suprised to hear that most
pilots in the UK can not use the radio legally, or am I missing
something?
I agree the list should kept to minmum, but your list has an item which
very much belongs to takeoff checklist, not landing list, unless I
missundersood it: Loose articles (including straps) - I rather
eliminate those *prior* to take off.

Ramy

Mark Dickson wrote:

At 21:36 20 November 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:

To ensure they do operate (freezing shut is not the
only way for them to
fail) and to activate the gear warning device.


The radio check may be valid in the States but isn't
necessary in the UK.

Is that because the field frequency is the same as
the one you use
during the flight, or because the glider fields you
use don't use a
radio in the pattern? I'm assuming you'd use the radio
at a regular
airport with mixed traffic.

If you checked your airbrakes at the DI and prior to
take-off, and you have not been flying in icing conditions,
they will open when you want them to. I've never heard
of airbrakes failing in flight and if they did so what?

I had the airbrakes on a Blanik fail to open on the pre-landing checks,
even though they operated correctly before takeoff. The sheet metal lip
caught on the edge of the spoiler box, a problem that didn't show up in
the heat of the afternoon. So, I'm sensitive to this. I agree it's rare.

You'll find out when you unlock them on base leg.

Base leg? I generally don't open them until I turn final. I don't like
opening them on base leg because it makes the turn to final occur at a
lower altitude, and it raises the stall speed. I will open them on the
base leg, or even downwind if it's very important to land as soon as
possible, but not for a normal landing.

As for opening them to activate the gear warner, well
that sounds a bit Irish to me. How about carrying
out the gear part of the checks?

Great idea, which I fully support, but in the first 1500 hours I flew, I
missed it three times due to distractions. I know other pilots that
have also done the same thing, and are pleased they had a gear warner. I
don't know any pilot that is unhappy he installed one. The UK position
was quite a surprise to me. If US pilots routinely landed on grass
fields instead of paved ones, perhaps they would not like gear warners
so much.

The radio is not
a necessary part of pre-landing checks, I and any other
glider pilot in the UK would be very unpopular if they
landed at an airport; and if you were tempted to, the
radio call should be made well before the point at
which the pre-landing checks are carried out. (Most
glider pilots in the UK do not have RT licences and
so couldn't legally make the calls anyway).

This is very different from the situation in the US, where flying from
and landing at public airports is common (mostly non-towered municipal
airports). We are expected to announce our intended landing at the
airport from about 5 miles out, then pattern entry, and typically the
turns to base and final. The frequency is different from the glider
frequency. Doing it on the wrong frequency isn't useful. A license is
not required in the US.

The point I'm trying to make Eric is that for checks
to be effective and not missed, they should only include
those things that are really necessary to check.

Agreed.

The
pre-landing checks I, and a lot of clubs use, are WULF:
waterballast, U/C, loose articles(including straps)
and flaps. In my opinion that is all you need to methodically
check to make a safe approach and landing, anything
else (apart maybe for radio in the States, as you obviously
do land at airports) is superfluous.
I also think these checks should be done prior to joining
the circuit, so that there are no distractions from
carrying them out and so that full concentration can
be given to flying the glider around the pattern and
looking out for other a/c on the ground and in the
air.

Agreed. I typically do them on the 45 degree entry to the downwind leg,
or the crosswind leg.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA