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#1
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C.D.Damron wrote:
"Dennis Fetters" wrote in message . com... Why are you even asking? We're waiting. I'll round up a copy. I don't exactly have one waiting for you to come on here and continue your lies. You are not only a internet character assassin, but an unprepared lousy one at that! You know what it said, Dennis. I should, I wrote it! But you're the one that made the false accusation and can't back it up. Dennis Fetters Designer of; Air Command 1/plcs Gyroplanes Air Command 2/plcs Gyroplanes Mini-500 1/Plcs Helicopter Voyager-500 2/Plcs Helicopter Excalibur 5/Plcs Turbine Helicopter Star-Lite-A VTUAV Helicopter Star-Lite-B VTUAV Helicopter |
#2
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![]() "Dennis Fetters" wrote in message m... I should, I wrote it! But you're the one that made the false accusation and can't back it up. I'll round it up. In the meantime, do you want to tell us how many hours you had on your prototype, not the Cicare prototype you took to Oshkosh, before you started selling your helicopters? I know this is the kind of questions that make you squirm, Dennis. |
#3
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C.D.Damron wrote:
"Dennis Fetters" wrote in message m... I should, I wrote it! But you're the one that made the false accusation and can't back it up. I'll round it up. In the meantime, do you want to tell us how many hours you had on your prototype, not the Cicare prototype you took to Oshkosh, before you started selling your helicopters? I know this is the kind of questions that make you squirm, Dennis. Why don't you just read for yourself sometime? The first time I took it to Oshkosh it had 0 hours. The second time it had 210 hours. Dennis Fetters Designer of; Air Command 1/plcs Gyroplanes Air Command 2/plcs Gyroplanes Mini-500 1/Plcs Helicopter Voyager-500 2/Plcs Helicopter Excalibur 5/Plcs Turbine Helicopter Star-Lite-A VTUAV Helicopter Star-Lite-B VTUAV Helicopter |
#4
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![]() "Dennis Fetters" wrote in message news ![]() The first time I took it to Oshkosh it had 0 hours. The second time it had 210 hours. Dennis, in separate posts, you have provided the info required to establish a timeline that shows you were more concerned with marketing than testing. In the Summer of 1992, the Mini-500 showed up at Oshkosh, but that aircraft didn't have its 40 hours flown off yet. Whether this was the first Mini or not, the timeline suggests that Fetters designed and tested his new design in a year and half, or less. Sometime in 1992, brochures were in circulation stating non-engine TBO's of 2000+ hours. By October of 1992, Revolution reported at least 150 orders had been placed. I'm not sure when the first Mini-500's shipped, but it is clear that the sales effort was on before the design was completed and TBO claims were advertised that had not been tested. By July of 1995, N500ZZ (serial #0000) only had 200 hours and was by everybody's opinion, the aircraft with the most time. Dennis, when Revolution had 150 orders, how many hours did your high time aircraft have??? |
#5
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C.D.Damron wrote:
"Dennis Fetters" wrote... The first time I took it to Oshkosh it had 0 hours. The second time it had 210 hours. Who left the master switch on? By July of 1995, N500ZZ (serial #0000) only had 200 hours and was by everybody's opinion, the aircraft with the most time. |
#6
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![]() "Darrel Toepfer" wrote in message ... C.D.Damron wrote: "Dennis Fetters" wrote... The first time I took it to Oshkosh it had 0 hours. The second time it had 210 hours. Who left the master switch on? By July of 1995, N500ZZ (serial #0000) only had 200 hours and was by everybody's opinion, the aircraft with the most time. For Fetters, the history of the Mini-500 starts with the display and demos of Cicare CH-6 at Oshkosh. He refers to this aircraft as "the prototype", but in his own posts states that he did not have access to the prototype after he ended his relationship with Cicare, forcing him to design and test a helicopter from scratch. Based on the timeline, Fetters designed a helicopter from scratch in a year and half after ending his relationship with Cicare, all the while taking orders based largely on the excitement generated by the earlier CH-6. I find it an amazing task that a helicopter could be designed, built, and tested in this timeframe. If you think that timeframe is a little tight, throw in a 1993 flood that Fetters has said resulted in delays. The high-time aircraft had about 200 hours on it by July of 1995. I DIDN'T THINK OF IT EARLIER, BUT I WONDER WHEN THE FIRST AIRCRAFT WAS ASSEMBLED AND TESTED USING PRODUCTION PARTS AS THEY APPEARED IN ACTUAL PRODUCTION KITS. This is an important question, as many of the problems associated with the Mini-500 were quality control issues that might have been revealed had adequate testing been performed on a kit-built aircraft, instead of a prototype craft where every part is crafted under close scrutiny. |
#7
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My observation is:
1. Denise is a good businessman, but not a good designer. 2. Cicarre is a good designer, but not a good businessman. |
#8
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C.D.Damron wrote:
"Darrel Toepfer" wrote in message ... C.D.Damron wrote: "Dennis Fetters" wrote... The first time I took it to Oshkosh it had 0 hours. The second time it had 210 hours. Who left the master switch on? By July of 1995, N500ZZ (serial #0000) only had 200 hours and was by everybody's opinion, the aircraft with the most time. For Fetters, the history of the Mini-500 starts with the display and demos of Cicare CH-6 at Oshkosh. He refers to this aircraft as "the prototype", but in his own posts states that he did not have access to the prototype after he ended his relationship with Cicare, forcing him to design and test a helicopter from scratch. Correct. Mr. Cicare, for whatever reason he had, could not live up to his end of the deal, forcing me to take on the Mini-500 on my own and with none of his help or experience, which would have been beneficial. Based on the timeline, Fetters designed a helicopter from scratch in a year and half after ending his relationship with Cicare, all the while taking orders based largely on the excitement generated by the earlier CH-6. I find it an amazing task that a helicopter could be designed, built, and tested in this timeframe. Thank you. It was an incredible amount of work. A challenge of a lifetime. Testing continued on many years after until we shipped the first kit, and many years after that until we closed our doors in 2000. If you think that timeframe is a little tight, throw in a 1993 flood that Fetters has said resulted in delays. Right. We even lost our only flying Mini-500, along with all of our factory equipment, molds and part supplies. We had to start all over, and move to a new location and outfit it too. Yet, in a year and a half after, we shipped our first kit. It was a magnificent comeback and triumph over adversity. Thank you for recognizing this. The high-time aircraft had about 200 hours on it by July of 1995. I DIDN'T THINK OF IT EARLIER, BUT I WONDER WHEN THE FIRST AIRCRAFT WAS ASSEMBLED AND TESTED USING PRODUCTION PARTS AS THEY APPEARED IN ACTUAL PRODUCTION KITS. The first Mini-500 I made had 95% of the same parts in it as was in the finalized machines. We also had a second Mini-500 before shipping, that was helping in the testing. The design was frozen sometime in early 1995, and tested on until the day we closed. This is an important question, as many of the problems associated with the Mini-500 were quality control issues that might have been revealed had adequate testing been performed on a kit-built aircraft, instead of a prototype craft where every part is crafted under close scrutiny. We had some quality control issues, as well as any new company with a product. Look at the R-22 and R-44 problems, and those were certified helicopters! We solved our problems, as they did. If you had some real-earth experience in what you were saying, then you would not be saying it. Dennis Fetters Designer of; Air Command 1/plcs Gyroplanes Air Command 2/plcs Gyroplanes Mini-500 1/Plcs Helicopter Voyager-500 2/Plcs Helicopter Excalibur 5/Plcs Turbine Helicopter Star-Lite-A VTUAV Helicopter Star-Lite-B VTUAV Helicopter |
#9
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I don't have much time to research your "time line" for accuracy, I'm to
busy on other projects. But, assuming you are correct, and the dates you have sounds about right to me, here are some answers: C.D.Damron wrote: Dennis, in separate posts, you have provided the info required to establish a timeline that shows you were more concerned with marketing than testing. You obviously have never designed, tested, manufactured and sold aircraft, or you would know better as to the balance it takes in the kitbuilt industry to accomplish such a goal. Yes, the purpose of the project was to sell and deliver kitbuilt helicopters. What a surprise, eh? We are not certified, can't charge certified prices, and don't have funding that it takes to test to certified levels. That's why there is "certified aircraft" and "kitbuilt experimental aircraft". Are you really a fool that don't understand the kitbuilt market? We tested for as long as we financially could, and for as long as the customers would tolerate. It was finally up to the customers when we had to freeze the design, because it became clear they would not wait any longer. We were at a point where we had solved all the design problems, tested to the point where we were having no immediate foreseeable problems, and then started manufacturing. That is what most all kitbuilt manufacturer have to do. Besides, let's not forget the fact that even what little problems the Mini-500 did have in customers hands; 1. We fixed those problems for free or at cost. 2. We still had less problems than certified helicopters had at introductions. 3. We never had a crash due to a failed part that was properly installed and maintained. 4. We never had a crash due to poor flying characteristics, in fact we had excellent flying characteristics. Could we have been even better? Absolutely, if we would have had all of our experience and knowledge in advance. But, we did very well, even considering it was our first helicopter project, we succeeded when most all other failed. In the Summer of 1992, the Mini-500 showed up at Oshkosh, but that aircraft didn't have its 40 hours flown off yet. Whether this was the first Mini or not, the timeline suggests that Fetters designed and tested his new design in a year and half, or less. That seems to be right. I started in December - January 1990. Sometime in 1992, brochures were in circulation stating non-engine TBO's of 2000+ hours. By October of 1992, Revolution reported at least 150 orders had been placed. No, we started saying we were designing the components to a 2000 hour life back in mid 1990. Dude, I had 50 orders before I even finished the first aircraft. After I flew it for the first time sometime in 1991, I had over 100 orders. I'm not sure when the first Mini-500's shipped, but it is clear that the sales effort was on before the design was completed and TBO claims were advertised that had not been tested. You are correct. Welcome to the kitbuilt world. That is how it is done. By July of 1995, N500ZZ (serial #0000) only had 200 hours and was by everybody's opinion, the aircraft with the most time. Sounds correct. Dennis, when Revolution had 150 orders, how many hours did your high time aircraft have??? I can't remember without looking it up, and I don't have that much time. But, if it were around 50 to 100 hours would not surprise me. But, by the time we started shipping kits, we had well more than double that, as I remember. The point you are trying to make is that I had the audacity to actually take orders for the Mini-500 before it was fully tested!!! OH MY GOD!!!! Well, wake up Mr. Darmon and smell the aviation fuel! That is how the kitbuilt market works. Don't like it? Stay away from it! Dennis Fetters Designer of; Air Command 1/plcs Gyroplanes Air Command 2/plcs Gyroplanes Mini-500 1/Plcs Helicopter Voyager-500 2/Plcs Helicopter Excalibur 5/Plcs Turbine Helicopter Star-Lite-A VTUAV Helicopter Star-Lite-B VTUAV Helicopter |
#10
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![]() "Dennis Fetters" wrote Designer of; Air Command 1/plcs Gyroplanes Air Command 2/plcs Gyroplanes Mini-500 1/Plcs Helicopter Voyager-500 2/Plcs Helicopter Excalibur 5/Plcs Turbine Helicopter Star-Lite-A VTUAV Helicopter Star-Lite-B VTUAV Helicopter Are they all deathtraps or only the Mini-500? |
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