Jet Crew: Reverse Thrusters Failed in Chicago - Washington Post

Well, The Washington Post being the source explains a lot. I was
wondering how they get the spoilers deployed with that nose wheel still
in the air. Seen it done dozens of times as I'm sure most on the
newsgroup have also.

Regards,

James A. (Jim) Carter


-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Whiting ]
Posted At: Sunday, December 11, 2005 12:50 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.piloting
Conversation: Jet Crew: Reverse Thrusters Failed in Chicago - Washington
Post
Subject: Jet Crew: Reverse Thrusters Failed in Chicago - Washington
Post

Marc CYBW wrote:

But a smooth landing and lowering
the nose may have been to delicate to trigger the automatic
deployment of the systems.



My goodness. How sensitive are those gear load sensing switches?

The source was the Washington Post.


Matt

A greaser landing would not necessarily compress the main
gear struts, which is what controls the auto-spoilers and
unlocks the gate on the power levers for reverse.
Lowering the nose gear will put the weight on three points
and not just the two main gear, which could allow the struts
to stay extended a little longer time.

In a light aircraft, maximum braking comes with the aircraft
on all three wheel and the elevator full back because the
tail down force is pushing the main tires into the ground.
It a transport with lift dump spoilers, the elevator
position is not as critical.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Jim Carter" wrote in message
t...
| Well, The Washington Post being the source explains a lot.
I was
| wondering how they get the spoilers deployed with that
nose wheel still
| in the air. Seen it done dozens of times as I'm sure most
on the
| newsgroup have also.
|
| Regards,
|
| James A. (Jim) Carter
|
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: Matt Whiting ]
| Posted At: Sunday, December 11, 2005 12:50 PM
| Posted To: rec.aviation.piloting
| Conversation: Jet Crew: Reverse Thrusters Failed in
Chicago - Washington
| Post
| Subject: Jet Crew: Reverse Thrusters Failed in
Chicago - Washington
| Post
|
| Marc CYBW wrote:
|
| But a smooth landing and lowering
| the nose may have been to delicate to trigger the
automatic
| deployment of the systems.
|
|
|
| My goodness. How sensitive are those gear load sensing
switches?
|
| The source was the Washington Post.
|
|
| Matt
|

"Flight spoilers (2 -1/2/3/4/500; 4 -NG's) augment the ailerons and are
powered by hydraulic system A (inboard) & B (outboard). Spoilers will
continue to operate with speedbrake deployed.

Ground spoilers are also from hydraulic system A.

Only the outboard flight spoilers are powered by hydraulic sys B

On landing, if armed, all spoilers will deploy when the thrust levers
are at idle and any two wheels have spun up or right gear is
compressed. If not armed, the speedbrakes will deploy when reverse
thrust is selected."

While airborne you will only see flight spoiler. On landing flight
spoilers and ground spoilers deploy.

On an 737 NG -With the Speed Brake handle in the up position and on the
ground...
Gnd Spoilers #1,6,7, & 12 between 52 & 60 degrees
Flt. Spoilers # 2,3,4,5,8,9,10 &11 between 33 & 38 degrees

The photos show the spoilers not deployeed-SOP when configuring the
aircraft for emergency evacuation. Deployed spoilers would inhibit
overwing emergency evacuation.

Above 10 feet radar altimeter, you can manually deploy the flight
spoilers (8 panels).

Below 10 feet radar altimeter and engines idle, flight (8 panels) and
GROUND spoilers (4 panels) are armed and can be manually deployed prior
to touchdown, wheels spin-up, or Rt. strut compression.

Sounds like something that should have been done.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"lynn" wrote in message
oups.com...
| Above 10 feet radar altimeter, you can manually deploy the
flight
| spoilers (8 panels).
|
| Below 10 feet radar altimeter and engines idle, flight (8
panels) and
| GROUND spoilers (4 panels) are armed and can be manually
deployed prior
| to touchdown, wheels spin-up, or Rt. strut compression.
|

Macklin, with all due respects, since the largest thing you've flown would
fit into a 737 intake duct, why don't you just shut the f*** up and listen
to the people who have flown them.

I've wrenched on them for a few thousand hours and can explain how the
landing gear squat switch works, but I'm not about to do that since my last
honest tweak on them was some forty years ago.

If you don't have direct experience, bug OFF.

Jim



"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
newsc5nf.25869$QW2.7007@dukeread08...
Sounds like something that should have been done.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"lynn" wrote in message
oups.com...
| Above 10 feet radar altimeter, you can manually deploy the
flight
| spoilers (8 panels).
|
| Below 10 feet radar altimeter and engines idle, flight (8
panels) and
| GROUND spoilers (4 panels) are armed and can be manually
deployed prior
| to touchdown, wheels spin-up, or Rt. strut compression.
|

Thank you for your opinion, but I still think my opinion is
valid and you are free to ignore anything you want.

My flying was 95% single pilot, in all weather and in a wide
range of airplanes. I learned to read and interpret on my
own, didn't have a dispatcher or co-pilot. When I did fly
with a crew as captain, my rule was simple, I'm not perfect,
I expect you (the co-pilot) to tell me what you think, I
will NEVER get mad at you unless you don't speak up and we
kill somebody. My co-pilots always seemed happy. I shared
legs but never deferred my authority. I also never made a
crewmember feel useless or ignorant.

The people who have flown the "big iron" seem to agree with
me, except for a few knee-jerk, "don't speak ill about
pilots" and "wait a year" for the NTSB folks. I know the
basic principles on the operation of a Boeing. I've even
taught a few Boeing engineers, USAF KC135 drivers, and
picked their brains to increase my general level of
experience.

BTW, the 737 intake is not quite that big. I would like to
have the ops manual for the SWA and the model Boeing 737 in
question, but I do not. I do not have the MDW weather for
the period before and after and I don't need it to have an
opinion. The NTSB will get all that and more. They will
have the cockpit tapes and the a multi-channel FDR. They
will know whether the crew was properly briefed on the
approach and landing and whether each switch was properly
set. There will be details landing data calculations. In
the end, some causes and factors will be reported.

But until then, somebody might gather a little info and not
have an accident if they hear about a POSSIBLE reason for
this accident.

BTW, wrenching on an airplane and knowing the mechanical
systems does not qualify you to fly that airplane in LIFR
conditions or to even understand the dynamic of a landing
from a pilot's point of view, what are your pilot
credentials and experience? Gee, this can be fun.

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"RST Engineering" wrote in message
.. .
| Macklin, with all due respects, since the largest thing
you've flown would
| fit into a 737 intake duct, why don't you just shut the
f*** up and listen
| to the people who have flown them.
|
| I've wrenched on them for a few thousand hours and can
explain how the
| landing gear squat switch works, but I'm not about to do
that since my last
| honest tweak on them was some forty years ago.
|
| If you don't have direct experience, bug OFF.
|
| Jim
|
|
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| newsc5nf.25869$QW2.7007@dukeread08...
| Sounds like something that should have been done.
|
|
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFI,A&P
|
| "lynn" wrote in message
|
oups.com...
| | Above 10 feet radar altimeter, you can manually deploy
the
| flight
| | spoilers (8 panels).
| |
| | Below 10 feet radar altimeter and engines idle, flight
(8
| panels) and
| | GROUND spoilers (4 panels) are armed and can be
manually
| deployed prior
| | to touchdown, wheels spin-up, or Rt. strut
compression.
| |
|
|
|
|

RST Engineering wrote:

Macklin, with all due respects, since the largest thing you've flown would
fit into a 737 intake duct, why don't you just shut the f*** up and listen
to the people who have flown them.

One does not need to operate a piece of machinery in order to comment on it,
any more than one needs to be a politician to discuss politics. You will be
surprised that many of the NTSB investigators who will officially investigate
this accident haven't flown anything larger than an intake duct too.



I've wrenched on them for a few thousand hours and can explain how the
landing gear squat switch works, but I'm not about to do that since my last
honest tweak on them was some forty years ago.

Good for you.

If you don't have direct experience, bug OFF.

Sorry Jim, you don't have any authority to tell anyone to bug OFF. This is a
public newsgroup. If you don't like someone's opinion feel free to post your
own, but you're not going to stop others from posting here.

--Brian
727 Captain (retired).

lynn wrote:
On landing, if armed, all spoilers will deploy when the thrust levers
are at idle and any two wheels have spun up or right gear is
compressed.

How come only when right gear is compressed? As opposed to either left
or right gear?

"Bucky" wrote:

lynn wrote:
On landing, if armed, all spoilers will deploy when the thrust levers
are at idle and any two wheels have spun up or right gear is
compressed.

How come only when right gear is compressed? As opposed to either left
or right gear?

I was on a flight where the approach conditions were challenging. I
then critiqued the co-pilot who landed the plane (after discussing it
with the pilot beforehand). My overall evaluation was similar to the
pilots (good landing) but if I recall correctly he landed one side
first on purpose to hasten or delay some function. Pilots of this
plane will know the complete answer. Those were two pleasant guys.

Ron Lee