Jet Crew: Reverse Thrusters Failed in Chicago - Washington Post

Macklin, with all due respects, since the largest thing you've flown would
fit into a 737 intake duct, why don't you just shut the f*** up and listen
to the people who have flown them.

I've wrenched on them for a few thousand hours and can explain how the
landing gear squat switch works, but I'm not about to do that since my last
honest tweak on them was some forty years ago.

If you don't have direct experience, bug OFF.

Jim



"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
newsc5nf.25869$QW2.7007@dukeread08...
Sounds like something that should have been done.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"lynn" wrote in message
oups.com...
| Above 10 feet radar altimeter, you can manually deploy the
flight
| spoilers (8 panels).
|
| Below 10 feet radar altimeter and engines idle, flight (8
panels) and
| GROUND spoilers (4 panels) are armed and can be manually
deployed prior
| to touchdown, wheels spin-up, or Rt. strut compression.
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message

You raise a question about technique...If the pilot applied
brakes manually before the wheels spun up to what ever rpm
was required, wouldn't that block any further automatic
spoiler deployment?

No, and (if I understand your wording correctly) you wouldn't want to. If
you are applying brakes, you want to stop, and thus the spoilers would be
helpful. The wheels spin up to the required point (usually 60 or 80kt) very
quickly, probably quicker than you could get on the brakes anyway. Also
incorporated into the antiskid system there is usually what they call locked
wheel protection - disallows braking to any wheel that senses as locked
prior to touchdown, thus peventing landing with brakes applied, which
usually results in blown tires.

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message

Sounds plausible to me, I've never flown anything bigger
than the BE1900 and the Beechjet BE400,

What did you think of the 1900? I had a chance to fly A & B models very
briefly. I thought it kind of a squirrelly airplane.


I do
know that a "carrier landing" is the way to get the struts
compressed ASAP.

The problem with thinking of the technique in those terms is that if you
make the touchdown too firm, you're likely to bounce a bit, thus
uncompressing the struts until the second touchdown, with a net increase in
time to brake or spoiler actuation.

Thank you for your opinion, but I still think my opinion is
valid and you are free to ignore anything you want.

My flying was 95% single pilot, in all weather and in a wide
range of airplanes. I learned to read and interpret on my
own, didn't have a dispatcher or co-pilot. When I did fly
with a crew as captain, my rule was simple, I'm not perfect,
I expect you (the co-pilot) to tell me what you think, I
will NEVER get mad at you unless you don't speak up and we
kill somebody. My co-pilots always seemed happy. I shared
legs but never deferred my authority. I also never made a
crewmember feel useless or ignorant.

The people who have flown the "big iron" seem to agree with
me, except for a few knee-jerk, "don't speak ill about
pilots" and "wait a year" for the NTSB folks. I know the
basic principles on the operation of a Boeing. I've even
taught a few Boeing engineers, USAF KC135 drivers, and
picked their brains to increase my general level of
experience.

BTW, the 737 intake is not quite that big. I would like to
have the ops manual for the SWA and the model Boeing 737 in
question, but I do not. I do not have the MDW weather for
the period before and after and I don't need it to have an
opinion. The NTSB will get all that and more. They will
have the cockpit tapes and the a multi-channel FDR. They
will know whether the crew was properly briefed on the
approach and landing and whether each switch was properly
set. There will be details landing data calculations. In
the end, some causes and factors will be reported.

But until then, somebody might gather a little info and not
have an accident if they hear about a POSSIBLE reason for
this accident.

BTW, wrenching on an airplane and knowing the mechanical
systems does not qualify you to fly that airplane in LIFR
conditions or to even understand the dynamic of a landing
from a pilot's point of view, what are your pilot
credentials and experience? Gee, this can be fun.

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"RST Engineering" wrote in message
.. .
| Macklin, with all due respects, since the largest thing
you've flown would
| fit into a 737 intake duct, why don't you just shut the
f*** up and listen
| to the people who have flown them.
|
| I've wrenched on them for a few thousand hours and can
explain how the
| landing gear squat switch works, but I'm not about to do
that since my last
| honest tweak on them was some forty years ago.
|
| If you don't have direct experience, bug OFF.
|
| Jim
|
|
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| newsc5nf.25869$QW2.7007@dukeread08...
| Sounds like something that should have been done.
|
|
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFI,A&P
|
| "lynn" wrote in message
|
oups.com...
| | Above 10 feet radar altimeter, you can manually deploy
the
| flight
| | spoilers (8 panels).
| |
| | Below 10 feet radar altimeter and engines idle, flight
(8
| panels) and
| | GROUND spoilers (4 panels) are armed and can be
manually
| deployed prior
| | to touchdown, wheels spin-up, or Rt. strut
compression.
| |
|
|
|
|

On a layer of loose powder snow, would the snow pack into
the dual wheel before friction started the wheel rotation?
I know that on the 200/F90 and 300 King Air we flew, we had
bleed air brake deice to unfreeze the disk brakes and allow
taxi and to be sure the wheels were not frozen in-flight.
With touchdown at 120-150 knots, the tires could hydroplane
and not being to rotate as quickly as expected, is that not
a possibility?

I will check to see what Boeing has in the way of
white-papers and check a few other sources, but it isn't a
high priority for me at the moment.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"John Gaquin" wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
|
| You raise a question about technique...If the pilot
applied
| brakes manually before the wheels spun up to what ever
rpm
| was required, wouldn't that block any further automatic
| spoiler deployment?
|
| No, and (if I understand your wording correctly) you
wouldn't want to. If
| you are applying brakes, you want to stop, and thus the
spoilers would be
| helpful. The wheels spin up to the required point
(usually 60 or 80kt) very
| quickly, probably quicker than you could get on the brakes
anyway. Also
| incorporated into the antiskid system there is usually
what they call locked
| wheel protection - disallows braking to any wheel that
senses as locked
| prior to touchdown, thus peventing landing with brakes
applied, which
| usually results in blown tires.
|
|

It was not as nice handling as the 200/300 King Air. Some
of the planes I flew had the power nose wheel steering and
that was nice. Most of the time I had in the 1900 was with
an empty cabin/cargo bay because I was doing flight tests on
airplanes coming out of the shop. Most were single pilot
operations, sometimes I took a mechanic or avionic tech
along to do some certification or to check some particular
system they could not fully diagnose on the ground. Yes, it
was in need of a better yaw dampener and most had the cheap
gyros and flight instruments.

Yes, if you bounce, but if the approach speed is at 1.2-1.3
and the wing is unloaded just before touchdown it isn't
likely to bounce. Of course except for an emergency, the
best option is to land on a runway that doesn't require such
heroic technique. I have done the "carrier" landing in the
F90 and 300 King Air on dry runways in VFR conditions. You
can make some very short landings, nice to know, but not
something I'd do except in an emergency if I had passengers
on the plane. The bounce will probably be caused by a nose
wheel first touchdown and rebound raising the angle of
attack. If you touch at 1.1-1.2 Vs with the nose just off
the ground, considering the strut extension, and are moving
the control wheel forward slightly at touch down, I've not
had a bounce. You do not want to move the control wheel
fully forward on a light aircraft, including the T-tailed
King Airs, because without lift dump spoilers, you will lift
weight off the main wheel tires and probably skid the tires.
The transport category jets don't have that problem because
they are designed to work differently from the typical GA
airplane..

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm




"John Gaquin" wrote in message
news |
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
|
| Sounds plausible to me, I've never flown anything bigger
| than the BE1900 and the Beechjet BE400,
|
| What did you think of the 1900? I had a chance to fly A &
B models very
| briefly. I thought it kind of a squirrelly airplane.
|
|
| I do
| know that a "carrier landing" is the way to get the
struts
| compressed ASAP.
|
| The problem with thinking of the technique in those terms
is that if you
| make the touchdown too firm, you're likely to bounce a
bit, thus
| uncompressing the struts until the second touchdown, with
a net increase in
| time to brake or spoiler actuation.
|
|
|

RST Engineering wrote:

Macklin, with all due respects, since the largest thing you've flown would
fit into a 737 intake duct, why don't you just shut the f*** up and listen
to the people who have flown them.

One does not need to operate a piece of machinery in order to comment on it,
any more than one needs to be a politician to discuss politics. You will be
surprised that many of the NTSB investigators who will officially investigate
this accident haven't flown anything larger than an intake duct too.



I've wrenched on them for a few thousand hours and can explain how the
landing gear squat switch works, but I'm not about to do that since my last
honest tweak on them was some forty years ago.

Good for you.

If you don't have direct experience, bug OFF.

Sorry Jim, you don't have any authority to tell anyone to bug OFF. This is a
public newsgroup. If you don't like someone's opinion feel free to post your
own, but you're not going to stop others from posting here.

--Brian
727 Captain (retired).

lynn wrote:
On landing, if armed, all spoilers will deploy when the thrust levers
are at idle and any two wheels have spun up or right gear is
compressed.

How come only when right gear is compressed? As opposed to either left
or right gear?

I really like the Bill of Rights and it is nice to see
people stand up for it. There is a new movement that says
if you haven't done something, you are not qualified to
comment on or about the subject. I have not committed
murder or rape, done any recreational drugs or flown
anything faster, bigger than the Beechjet 400. But I can
still comment on any of those subjects.

Just to make one of those statements, Tookie killed four
people 25 years ago. If he has really reformed in prison,
that's nice, that means he'll go to Heaven instead of Hell.
But it doesn't mean he still should not be executed. If he
really was reformed, he might even talk about the CRIPS. If
he is executed, all those books he wrote will have a new
dust jacket that will say, "See, you really should behave
yourself."


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"Brian Wilson" wrote in message
...
| RST Engineering wrote:
|
| Macklin, with all due respects, since the largest thing
you've flown would
| fit into a 737 intake duct, why don't you just shut the
f*** up and listen
| to the people who have flown them.
|
| One does not need to operate a piece of machinery in order
to comment on it,
| any more than one needs to be a politician to discuss
politics. You will be
| surprised that many of the NTSB investigators who will
officially investigate
| this accident haven't flown anything larger than an intake
duct too.
|
|
|
| I've wrenched on them for a few thousand hours and can
explain how the
| landing gear squat switch works, but I'm not about to do
that since my last
| honest tweak on them was some forty years ago.
|
| Good for you.
|
| If you don't have direct experience, bug OFF.
|
| Sorry Jim, you don't have any authority to tell anyone to
bug OFF. This is a
| public newsgroup. If you don't like someone's opinion
feel free to post your
| own, but you're not going to stop others from posting
here.
|
| --Brian
| 727 Captain (retired).
|

"Bucky" wrote:

lynn wrote:
On landing, if armed, all spoilers will deploy when the thrust levers
are at idle and any two wheels have spun up or right gear is
compressed.

How come only when right gear is compressed? As opposed to either left
or right gear?

I was on a flight where the approach conditions were challenging. I
then critiqued the co-pilot who landed the plane (after discussing it
with the pilot beforehand). My overall evaluation was similar to the
pilots (good landing) but if I recall correctly he landed one side
first on purpose to hasten or delay some function. Pilots of this
plane will know the complete answer. Those were two pleasant guys.

Ron Lee