Private Planes: Freedom, Security, and Responsibility

It is all Bill Gates fault, Microsoft Flight Simulator
software allows any sky lune itic to practice the task of
flying into a building in their choice of aircraft. I think
the earlier versions even had the NYC skyline and WTC on the
box cover.

Certainly, it is not possible to learn how to steer and
airplane anywhere else in the world, except the USA. There
are no airplanes in the Mid-East, Far-East, Africa or any
place other than Florida, Texas, and California.

What I want to know is when will the government and the
anti-weapons/self-defense crowd admit that the security
rules themselves left the passenger and crew in an unarmed
and [mentally] defenseless state. Had every passenger had a
6 shot 38 or 45 revolver and instructions to , sit in your
seat and shot anybody who causes trouble, NONE of those
airliners would have been hijacked.
To those who will say that the possibility of gun fire in
the cabin would cause explosive decompression, remember that
FAR 25 airplanes are designed and have been so for decades,
to resist and handle damage to the structure and explosions
that can leave a 20 sq. ft. hole in the fuselage. The out
flow valve will just close a little bit for a few dozen
bullets holes.

But it is felt that death in a plane crash or with your
throat cut by a terrorists is better than having citizens
armed and acting in their own best interest.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
| Would one expect the airlines to act responsibly and
admit their
| failure to provide adequate security previous to 9/11, and
work
| collaboratively to rectify their shortcoming?
|
| Commercial aviation provided the vehicles. GA provided
the training.
| Would one expect GA schools to act responsibly and admit
their failure to
| provide adequate security previous to 9/11?
|

Wow. Jim, you and I are definitely on the same wavelength here re
Microsoft : )

BTW, I think Glaser safety slugs are considered safe for ventilating
bad guys but not damaging aircraft..

The GLASER bullet will penetrate the fuselage unless it hits
a wet body first. I recently fired some Glasers into some
standard 1 gallon plastic (disposable type) water jugs.
None of the slugs exited the water jug, there were many
small lead pellets and a few bits of copper jacket inside
the remains of the jug. The Glaser is to protect the other
people on the airplane, not the airplane.

FAR 25 requires that the pressurized aircraft be able to
withstand explosions, engine disintegration and maintain a
livable cabin with a 20 sq. ft. hole. That size hole would
require about 1/2 a ton of bullets.
I have spoken with several Boeing engineers about this and
we all agree that handguns in the cabin do not pose a
serious threat to the aircraft.

Let's imagine a Western movie, the deputy runs into the
Marshall's office shouting that the outlaws are going to rob
the stage when it get 5 miles out of town, Can you imagine
the laughter, anywhere in the world, if the Marshall
said,"Take the guns away from the passengers to avoid
violence."




--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

wrote in message
oups.com...
| Wow. Jim, you and I are definitely on the same wavelength
here re
| Microsoft : )
|
| BTW, I think Glaser safety slugs are considered safe for
ventilating
| bad guys but not damaging aircraft..
|

Jim Macklin wrote:

FAR 25 requires that the pressurized aircraft be able to
withstand explosions, engine disintegration and maintain a
livable cabin with a 20 sq. ft. hole. That size hole would
require about 1/2 a ton of bullets.

Cite?

A hole the size of a twin bed is pretty BIG!


Jack

§ 25.365 Pressurized compartment loads.
Look it up yourself, FAR 25 under pressure, the formula
given is based on cabin cross section, with 20 sq. ft as a
maximum required. A sq. ft = 144 sq.in. a .45 caliber
bullet is 0.1592611875 sq.in or 18083 bullet holes for 20
sq. ft.

A 45 ACP bullet is 230 grains and a loaded cartridge weight
is about 400 grains. An ounce is 437.5 grains and
therefore, about 16 bullets to a pound. 18,000 ounces of
cartridges is 1130 pounds and a half ton is only 1,000
pounds. If you only consider the bullets, it would be a
little less than a half ton, but bullets without cases,
powder, etc are just lumps.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P




"Jack" wrote in message
. net...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| FAR 25 requires that the pressurized aircraft be able to
| withstand explosions, engine disintegration and maintain
a
| livable cabin with a 20 sq. ft. hole. That size hole
would
| require about 1/2 a ton of bullets.
|
| Cite?
|
| A hole the size of a twin bed is pretty BIG!
|
|
| Jack

by "Jim Macklin" Dec 14, 2005 at
01:37 PM


It is all Bill Gates fault, Microsoft Flight Simulator
software allows any sky lune itic to practice the task of
flying into a building in their choice of aircraft. I think
the earlier versions even had the NYC skyline and WTC on the
box cover.

Certainly, it is not possible to learn how to steer and
airplane anywhere else in the world, except the USA. There
are no airplanes in the Mid-East, Far-East, Africa or any
place other than Florida, Texas, and California.

What I want to know is when will the government and the
anti-weapons/self-defense crowd admit that the security
rules themselves left the passenger and crew in an unarmed
and [mentally] defenseless state. Had every passenger had a
6 shot 38 or 45 revolver and instructions to , sit in your
seat and shot anybody who causes trouble, NONE of those
airliners would have been hijacked.

True about MS Flight Simulator. I used to fly it around the WTC (and
Megis field) myself. But, as you know, the terrorists trained at GA
schools. This is a FACT, and has been well publicized.

As far as your arming the passengers scenario, the govt. did "admit" this
implicitly by allowing pilots to be armed.

Where I live, most everyone is armed (including yours truly, with my handy
dandy Mossberg), and there is virtually no crime, so I kinda/sorta see your
point. But, I wonder how comfortable the pilots and other passengers would
feel knowing that most of their fellow passengers were armed??

I fly SWA occassionally. Imagine what would happen during their boarding
process if most of the passengers were armed?

Imagine if this is what had happened on the morning of
9-11...
Welcome aboard Mr. Atta, your seat is 11 C, do you have your
gun?
No, just a box cutter.

We'll we are handing out guns to every passenger who wants
to be armed, would you prefer a S&W or a Colt or Ruger?
Just select the gun you want and have a seat. Please be
careful, anybody who causes trouble will be shot. Have a
nice day and thank you for choosing to fly with us today.


Do you think any of the airliners would have been hijacked
by a 5 man terror crew with perhaps a 100 armed and alert
passengers [being armed tends to make you alert]?

BTW, Pilots on the airlines were required to be armed before
the mid-late 60's, to protect the mail. Your postman
walking the street also often had a gun in his big leather
bag. But LBJs postmaster general took them away.

The government is dragging its feet as much as possible to
keep flight crews unarmed, making as many obstacles to
getting a pilot armed as they can. The boss of the program
was John McGrew, the former head of the BATF and as anti-gun
a person as can be found short of HCI.

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm





"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
| by "Jim Macklin"
Dec 14, 2005 at
| 01:37 PM
|
|
| It is all Bill Gates fault, Microsoft Flight Simulator
| software allows any sky lune itic to practice the task
of
| flying into a building in their choice of aircraft. I
think
| the earlier versions even had the NYC skyline and WTC on
the
| box cover.
|
| Certainly, it is not possible to learn how to steer and
| airplane anywhere else in the world, except the USA.
There
| are no airplanes in the Mid-East, Far-East, Africa or any
| place other than Florida, Texas, and California.
|
| What I want to know is when will the government and the
| anti-weapons/self-defense crowd admit that the security
| rules themselves left the passenger and crew in an unarmed
| and [mentally] defenseless state. Had every passenger had
a
| 6 shot 38 or 45 revolver and instructions to , sit in your
| seat and shot anybody who causes trouble, NONE of those
| airliners would have been hijacked.
|
| True about MS Flight Simulator. I used to fly it around
the WTC (and
| Megis field) myself. But, as you know, the terrorists
trained at GA
| schools. This is a FACT, and has been well publicized.
|
| As far as your arming the passengers scenario, the govt.
did "admit" this
| implicitly by allowing pilots to be armed.
|
| Where I live, most everyone is armed (including yours
truly, with my handy
| dandy Mossberg), and there is virtually no crime, so I
kinda/sorta see your
| point. But, I wonder how comfortable the pilots and other
passengers would
| feel knowing that most of their fellow passengers were
armed??
|
| I fly SWA occassionally. Imagine what would happen during
their boarding
| process if most of the passengers were armed?
|
|
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:bL%nf.29034$QW2.18759@dukeread08...


BTW, Pilots on the airlines were required to be armed before
the mid-late 60's, to protect the mail. Your postman
walking the street also often had a gun in his big leather
bag. But LBJs postmaster general took them away.


Do you have a cite for that? I grew up at the airport hanging around the
Trans Texas Airlines (Later Texas International) office and I think I'd
remember after 65 or 66 if the pilots were carrying guns. I know TTA was
carrying airmail because one of my Grandfathers side jobs was taking the
mail from the post office to the airport.

There are many sources you can look up. You will even find
reports of airline pilots killing attempted hijackers BEFORE
the date of the Cuban hijackings, which began after the PO
rescinded the requirement for armed pilots.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:bL%nf.29034$QW2.18759@dukeread08...
|
|
| BTW, Pilots on the airlines were required to be armed
before
| the mid-late 60's, to protect the mail. Your postman
| walking the street also often had a gun in his big
leather
| bag. But LBJs postmaster general took them away.
|
|
| Do you have a cite for that? I grew up at the airport
hanging around the
| Trans Texas Airlines (Later Texas International) office
and I think I'd
| remember after 65 or 66 if the pilots were carrying guns.
I know TTA was
| carrying airmail because one of my Grandfathers side jobs
was taking the
| mail from the post office to the airport.
|
|

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

Do you have a cite for that?

It's mentioned frequently in older books on aviation. Check out "Fate is the
Hunter" or Ernie Gann's autobiography for starters. Gann retired from commercial
aviation in the late 50s, and pilots were still required to carry pistols in
their flight bags.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.