Private Planes: Freedom, Security, and Responsibility

by " Dec 14, 2005 at 12:30
PM


I also "suspect" this could have been done with MS Flight Sim. But,
that
is not what really happened. Fact: The terrorists trained at GA
schools

Yes they did. Many flight school students were/are Arabic. The
overwhelming majority are not terrorists. What do you suggest might
have prevented the attack? If you're going to suggest tighter screening
of foreign students, that's not up to the flight schools, that would be
a gov't function as it would involve the State Dept. So, tell me how GA
was responsible again?

Good points.

To clarify, I did not say GA was "responsible." I said that GA schools
provided the training.

There is plenty of blame to go around, with most falling on FBI
bureacracy, and airport "security" at Logan IMO.

I actually think the flight schools bear little of the responsibility,
even though they were roundly criticized right after the terrorist
*******s committed their cowardly attacks.

I'm fairly certain that new security requirements have been established
for foreign-born trainees.

I'm not buying the McVeigh/Ryder truck analogy. I'm pretty sure that
people purchasing large quantities of nitrogen based products such as
fertilizer face some type of restrictions or scrutiny today, but I'm not
sure.

All non-US citizens begin flight training are required to
submit a fee of $150 and a complete history and photographs
before beginning flight training. All CFIs/flight schools
are required to verify citizenship for all students and may
not train a non-citizen until they are approved by the TSA.
There is an exception for already certificated pilots just
getting recurrent training, etc.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P
CFI expires Jan 2008



--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
| by " Dec 14,
2005 at 12:30
| PM
|
|
| I also "suspect" this could have been done with MS
Flight Sim. But,
| that
| is not what really happened. Fact: The terrorists
trained at GA
| schools
|
| Yes they did. Many flight school students were/are Arabic.
The
| overwhelming majority are not terrorists. What do you
suggest might
| have prevented the attack? If you're going to suggest
tighter screening
| of foreign students, that's not up to the flight schools,
that would be
| a gov't function as it would involve the State Dept. So,
tell me how GA
| was responsible again?
|
| Good points.
|
| To clarify, I did not say GA was "responsible." I said
that GA schools
| provided the training.
|
| There is plenty of blame to go around, with most falling
on FBI
| bureacracy, and airport "security" at Logan IMO.
|
| I actually think the flight schools bear little of the
responsibility,
| even though they were roundly criticized right after the
terrorist
| *******s committed their cowardly attacks.
|
| I'm fairly certain that new security requirements have
been established
| for foreign-born trainees.
|
| I'm not buying the McVeigh/Ryder truck analogy. I'm
pretty sure that
| people purchasing large quantities of nitrogen based
products such as
| fertilizer face some type of restrictions or scrutiny
today, but I'm not
| sure.
|
|
|
|

by "Jim Macklin" Dec 14, 2005 at
03:08 PM


All non-US citizens begin flight training are required to
submit a fee of $150 and a complete history and photographs
before beginning flight training. All CFIs/flight schools
are required to verify citizenship for all students and may
not train a non-citizen until they are approved by the TSA.
There is an exception for already certificated pilots just
getting recurrent training, etc

Jim: The requirements for non citizens are new (post 9/11/01), aren't
they? They seem pretty reasonable to me.

Yes, they are new and no, they are not really reasonable,
they do not look at a Canadian of Irish descent and
differently than they do for a Muslim from a refugee camp in
Palestine.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
| by "Jim Macklin"
Dec 14, 2005 at
| 03:08 PM
|
|
| All non-US citizens begin flight training are required to
| submit a fee of $150 and a complete history and
photographs
| before beginning flight training. All CFIs/flight schools
| are required to verify citizenship for all students and
may
| not train a non-citizen until they are approved by the
TSA.
| There is an exception for already certificated pilots just
| getting recurrent training, etc
|
| Jim: The requirements for non citizens are new (post
9/11/01), aren't
| they? They seem pretty reasonable to me.
|
|
|

On 2005-12-14, Skylune wrote:
Jim: The requirements for non citizens are new (post 9/11/01), aren't
they? They seem pretty reasonable to me.

Except they would have been pointless then - even if those regulations
existed then, the terrorists would have all been approved.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

by Dylan Smith Dec 15, 2005 at 02:30 PM


On 2005-12-14, Skylune wrote:
Jim: The requirements for non citizens are new (post 9/11/01), aren't
they? They seem pretty reasonable to me.

Except they would have been pointless then - even if those regulations
existed then, the terrorists would have all been approved.

Why? Jim M stated that flight schools are now required to verify US
citizenship, and not train non-citizens until they are approved by TSA.
If this is true, why would the terrorists have been approved?

"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
by Dylan Smith Dec 15, 2005 at 02:30 PM


On 2005-12-14, Skylune wrote:
Jim: The requirements for non citizens are new (post 9/11/01), aren't
they? They seem pretty reasonable to me.

Except they would have been pointless then - even if those regulations
existed then, the terrorists would have all been approved.

Why? Jim M stated that flight schools are now required to verify US
citizenship, and not train non-citizens until they are approved by TSA.
If this is true, why would the terrorists have been approved?


I think the more important question is, why would they have not been
approved?

TSA rules only detect known terrorists and others with
criminal records.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
| by Dylan Smith Dec 15, 2005 at
02:30 PM
|
|
| On 2005-12-14, Skylune wrote:
| Jim: The requirements for non citizens are new (post
9/11/01), aren't
| they? They seem pretty reasonable to me.
|
| Except they would have been pointless then - even if those
regulations
| existed then, the terrorists would have all been
approved.
|
| Why? Jim M stated that flight schools are now required to
verify US
| citizenship, and not train non-citizens until they are
approved by TSA.
| If this is true, why would the terrorists have been
approved?
|
|
|
|

by "Jim Macklin" Dec 15, 2005 at
11:10 AM


TSA rules only detect known terrorists and others with
criminal records.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P


If this is so, it seems the new requirements WOULD HAVE detected the 9-11
terrorists. I say this because several of the hijackers were in the
country illegally, using forged documents (passports and visas) to
illegally obtain driver's licenses. (I confirmed this in a news search.)


Surely, the TSA would pick up forged passports, especially the new
passports now being required for foreigners entering the country.

On 2005-12-15, Skylune wrote:
Why? Jim M stated that flight schools are now required to verify US
citizenship, and not train non-citizens until they are approved by TSA.
If this is true, why would the terrorists have been approved?

At the time, they were legally in the United States, and none of them
had a criminal background or other background that said 'terrorist'. Had
that condition existed, the people behind the attacks would have made
doubly sure the people used for the mission were squeaky clean. Only if
the US said "All foreigners are banned from flight training" would a
plan like this not worked - well, not worked in the same way (they would
have just trained in Canada instead, or perhaps any number of
countries). Or found a Timothy McVeigh type - it's not that far fetched,
there was an extensive radio programme about one of the London bombers
from July 7th, the remarkable thing about this bomber is that he was not
at all religious to start with and became radicalised only in the last
few years (and even his WIFE didn't know what he was planning or that he
was capable of such an act).

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net