Private Planes: Freedom, Security, and Responsibility

by "Jim Macklin" Dec 14, 2005 at
03:08 PM


All non-US citizens begin flight training are required to
submit a fee of $150 and a complete history and photographs
before beginning flight training. All CFIs/flight schools
are required to verify citizenship for all students and may
not train a non-citizen until they are approved by the TSA.
There is an exception for already certificated pilots just
getting recurrent training, etc

Jim: The requirements for non citizens are new (post 9/11/01), aren't
they? They seem pretty reasonable to me.

Yes, they are new and no, they are not really reasonable,
they do not look at a Canadian of Irish descent and
differently than they do for a Muslim from a refugee camp in
Palestine.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
| by "Jim Macklin"
Dec 14, 2005 at
| 03:08 PM
|
|
| All non-US citizens begin flight training are required to
| submit a fee of $150 and a complete history and
photographs
| before beginning flight training. All CFIs/flight schools
| are required to verify citizenship for all students and
may
| not train a non-citizen until they are approved by the
TSA.
| There is an exception for already certificated pilots just
| getting recurrent training, etc
|
| Jim: The requirements for non citizens are new (post
9/11/01), aren't
| they? They seem pretty reasonable to me.
|
|
|

On 2005-12-14, Skylune wrote:
Jim: The requirements for non citizens are new (post 9/11/01), aren't
they? They seem pretty reasonable to me.

Except they would have been pointless then - even if those regulations
existed then, the terrorists would have all been approved.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

by Dylan Smith Dec 15, 2005 at 02:30 PM


On 2005-12-14, Skylune wrote:
Jim: The requirements for non citizens are new (post 9/11/01), aren't
they? They seem pretty reasonable to me.

Except they would have been pointless then - even if those regulations
existed then, the terrorists would have all been approved.

Why? Jim M stated that flight schools are now required to verify US
citizenship, and not train non-citizens until they are approved by TSA.
If this is true, why would the terrorists have been approved?

"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
by Dylan Smith Dec 15, 2005 at 02:30 PM


On 2005-12-14, Skylune wrote:
Jim: The requirements for non citizens are new (post 9/11/01), aren't
they? They seem pretty reasonable to me.

Except they would have been pointless then - even if those regulations
existed then, the terrorists would have all been approved.

Why? Jim M stated that flight schools are now required to verify US
citizenship, and not train non-citizens until they are approved by TSA.
If this is true, why would the terrorists have been approved?


I think the more important question is, why would they have not been
approved?

TSA rules only detect known terrorists and others with
criminal records.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
| by Dylan Smith Dec 15, 2005 at
02:30 PM
|
|
| On 2005-12-14, Skylune wrote:
| Jim: The requirements for non citizens are new (post
9/11/01), aren't
| they? They seem pretty reasonable to me.
|
| Except they would have been pointless then - even if those
regulations
| existed then, the terrorists would have all been
approved.
|
| Why? Jim M stated that flight schools are now required to
verify US
| citizenship, and not train non-citizens until they are
approved by TSA.
| If this is true, why would the terrorists have been
approved?
|
|
|
|

by "Jim Macklin" Dec 15, 2005 at
11:10 AM


TSA rules only detect known terrorists and others with
criminal records.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P


If this is so, it seems the new requirements WOULD HAVE detected the 9-11
terrorists. I say this because several of the hijackers were in the
country illegally, using forged documents (passports and visas) to
illegally obtain driver's licenses. (I confirmed this in a news search.)


Surely, the TSA would pick up forged passports, especially the new
passports now being required for foreigners entering the country.

Maybe, but in general background checks look for records of
known activity, they have to show [prove] that you are
forbidden with positive records. No records probably will
pass the test.

I can design a level of security that will prevent all crime
and terrorism, it will involve having at least 1 policeman
every 50 square feet in every town and city, 1 policeman for
every civilian on every train, plane or bus. Everybody will
be tattooed with a bar code on their face for
identification.
Everybody will need permission before leaving their house,
school or work.

But then who will protect us from the police?


--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
| by "Jim Macklin"
Dec 15, 2005 at
| 11:10 AM
|
|
| TSA rules only detect known terrorists and others with
| criminal records.
|
|
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFI,A&P
|
|
| If this is so, it seems the new requirements WOULD HAVE
detected the 9-11
| terrorists. I say this because several of the hijackers
were in the
| country illegally, using forged documents (passports and
visas) to
| illegally obtain driver's licenses. (I confirmed this in
a news search.)
|
|
| Surely, the TSA would pick up forged passports, especially
the new
| passports now being required for foreigners entering the
country.
|
|
|
|
|
|

On 2005-12-15, Skylune wrote:
Why? Jim M stated that flight schools are now required to verify US
citizenship, and not train non-citizens until they are approved by TSA.
If this is true, why would the terrorists have been approved?

At the time, they were legally in the United States, and none of them
had a criminal background or other background that said 'terrorist'. Had
that condition existed, the people behind the attacks would have made
doubly sure the people used for the mission were squeaky clean. Only if
the US said "All foreigners are banned from flight training" would a
plan like this not worked - well, not worked in the same way (they would
have just trained in Canada instead, or perhaps any number of
countries). Or found a Timothy McVeigh type - it's not that far fetched,
there was an extensive radio programme about one of the London bombers
from July 7th, the remarkable thing about this bomber is that he was not
at all religious to start with and became radicalised only in the last
few years (and even his WIFE didn't know what he was planning or that he
was capable of such an act).

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net