Report Leaving Assigned Altitude?

I don't think I would "bob up and down" on a cruise clearance. I would request
a block altitude assignment if I want to "bob up and down." A cruise clearance
is also an instrument approach clearance, so once I leave the last assigned for
all I know the controller may be using my Mode C as a de facto report out of
that altitude. I don't have to worry about that possible ambiguity with a block
altitude assignment.

And, I learned a long time ago not to buy into any situation that can become
ambiguous. That doesn't help me nor does it help the controller.

I can certainly descend to an intermediate altitude on a curise clearance, then
level off. But, "bob back up?" not me.

Bob Gardner wrote:

Something that has been missed in the responses to your post is that when
given a cruise clearance you can bob up and down between the assigned cruise
altitude and the MEA without any report at all UNTIL you report leaving the
assigned cruise altitude...at that point, ATC can assign 7000 (in your
example) to another aircraft. Don't report leaving until you know for sure
that you won't be going back up. The most practical use of a cruise
clearance is when you suspect that the ride or the weather would be better
at a lower altitude, so you descend without saying a word to ATC and take a
look...if conditions are better, you say "Cessna blah blah requests 5000 (or
whatever) as a hard altitude" and stay there. If they are not, you go back
up or choose an intermediate altitude. Bottom line is that you own the block
of airspace between the assigned cruise altitude and the MEA and can do
whatever you want to do within that block without report UNTIL you make the
report...then you have given up the cruise altitude. Read the "Cruise"
definition in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.

Bob Gardner

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...
1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent
descents?
E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"? Then later "leaving 5000 descending
2000"?

2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?

3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I
report
my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so, do I
eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending
5000"?
Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"?

Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR
experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above
cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary...

Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

In article , wrote:
I don't think I would "bob up and down" on a cruise clearance. I
would request a block altitude assignment if I want to "bob up and
down."

A cruise clearance *is* a block altitude assignment.

A cruise clearance is also an instrument approach clearance, so once
I leave the last assigned for all I know the controller may be using
my Mode C as a de facto report out of that altitude.

You own the altitude until you report leaving it. Your mode C does not
count as reporting leaving the altitude.

With reference to using Mode C as a defacto report....

5-5-6 Exceptions
{New-2003-15 a. revised August 7, 2003}
a. Do not use Mode C to effect vertical separation with an aircraft on a
cruise clearance, contact approach, or as specified in paragraph 5-15-4,
System Requirements, subparagraph e and f.

Maybe not right on point, but a suggestion that controller's do not
necessarily buy a Mode C readout all the time.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message ...
I don't think I would "bob up and down" on a cruise clearance. I would
request
a block altitude assignment if I want to "bob up and down." A cruise
clearance
is also an instrument approach clearance, so once I leave the last
assigned for
all I know the controller may be using my Mode C as a de facto report out
of
that altitude. I don't have to worry about that possible ambiguity with a
block
altitude assignment.

And, I learned a long time ago not to buy into any situation that can
become
ambiguous. That doesn't help me nor does it help the controller.

I can certainly descend to an intermediate altitude on a curise clearance,
then
level off. But, "bob back up?" not me.

Bob Gardner wrote:

Something that has been missed in the responses to your post is that
when
given a cruise clearance you can bob up and down between the assigned
cruise
altitude and the MEA without any report at all UNTIL you report leaving
the
assigned cruise altitude...at that point, ATC can assign 7000 (in your
example) to another aircraft. Don't report leaving until you know for
sure
that you won't be going back up. The most practical use of a cruise
clearance is when you suspect that the ride or the weather would be
better
at a lower altitude, so you descend without saying a word to ATC and
take a
look...if conditions are better, you say "Cessna blah blah requests 5000
(or
whatever) as a hard altitude" and stay there. If they are not, you go
back
up or choose an intermediate altitude. Bottom line is that you own the
block
of airspace between the assigned cruise altitude and the MEA and can do
whatever you want to do within that block without report UNTIL you make
the
report...then you have given up the cruise altitude. Read the "Cruise"
definition in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.

Bob Gardner

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...
1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent
descents?
E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"? Then later "leaving 5000
descending
2000"?

2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I
report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?

3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I
report
my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so,
do I
eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending
5000"?
Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"?

Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR
experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above
cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary...

Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

Bob Gardner wrote:

With reference to using Mode C as a defacto report....

5-5-6 Exceptions
{New-2003-15 a. revised August 7, 2003}
a. Do not use Mode C to effect vertical separation with an aircraft on a
cruise clearance, contact approach, or as specified in paragraph 5-15-4,
System Requirements, subparagraph e and f.

Maybe not right on point, but a suggestion that controller's do not
necessarily buy a Mode C readout all the time.

That book has rules then it has rules.

"Bob Gardner" wrote in
news:5cN2c.197384$jk2.708530@attbi_s53:

With reference to using Mode C as a defacto report....

5-5-6 Exceptions
{New-2003-15 a. revised August 7, 2003}
a. Do not use Mode C to effect vertical separation with an
aircraft on a
cruise clearance, contact approach, or as specified in
paragraph 5-15-4, System Requirements, subparagraph e and
f.

Maybe not right on point, but a suggestion that
controller's do not necessarily buy a Mode C readout all
the time.

They may buy the Mode C readout, but they can't trust the
aircraft to stay at the altitude they're reading. A cruise
clearance permits descending and climbing at pilot's discretion.
We use it all the time in the Gulf of Mexico, for instrument
approaches where we can't talk to center once we start a
descent, or often at altitude. We don't often climb back up,
but we might if we lose comm with both center and our company
flight following, and have to climb to regain contact. On a
cruise clearance, the aircraft may either climb or descend,
without the controller having any control over it, thus he can't
rely on the altitude readout to separate traffic.

--
Regards,

Stan

wrote in message ...

I can certainly descend to an intermediate altitude on a curise clearance,
then
level off. But, "bob back up?" not me.

That is fine if you choose not to do so, but the AIM is very clear that such
"bobbing back up" is permissible.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

Well, lets ask the controllers here (rather than AIM, which we all have access
to). On a cruise clearance, for example Cruise 6000, you observe (mode C) an
aircraft has descended from 6000 to 4000. There is another aircraft which
could use the 6000 altitude. You've received no communications from the
aircraft on a cruise (except the acknowlegement of the clearance). Do you
consider the 6000 foot alititude vacant?

Same question, but the cruise aircraft has reported descending to 4000. Has
his report of a descent vacated the 6000 foot altitude? (no bobbing back up)

Same question, but instead of a cruise question, it's a "descend at pilot's
discretion to 2000". The pilot acknowleges the clearance, and later is
observed at 4000 feet, having not reported the descent.

Same question, same airplane, but in this case the pilot reported descending
from 6000 to 4000.

So, in which cases does 6000 no longer belong to the pilot, in your eyes and
actions?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Well, lets ask the controllers here (rather than AIM, which we all have
access to). On a cruise clearance, for example Cruise 6000, you
observe (mode C) an aircraft has descended from 6000 to 4000.
There is another aircraft which could use the 6000 altitude. You've
received no communications from the aircraft on a cruise (except the
acknowlegement of the clearance). Do you consider the 6000 foot
alititude vacant?


No, the aircraft is entitled to climb back to 6000 if so desired. 6000
becomes available when the aircraft verbally reports leaving 5000.



Same question, but the cruise aircraft has reported descending to 4000.
Has his report of a descent vacated the 6000 foot altitude? (no
bobbing back up)


No, a pilot may not return to an altitude that he's verbally reported
leaving, verbally reporting that he's descending to an intermediate altitude
does nothing.



Same question, but instead of a cruise question, it's a "descend at
pilot's
discretion to 2000". The pilot acknowleges the clearance, and later is
observed at 4000 feet, having not reported the descent.


5000 and 6000 are now available for other aircraft.



Same question, same airplane, but in this case the pilot reported
descending from 6000 to 4000.


No change.

"Teacherjh" wrote in message =
...
Well, lets ask the controllers here (rather than AIM, which we all =
have access
to). On a cruise clearance, for example Cruise 6000, you observe =
(mode C) an
aircraft has descended from 6000 to 4000. There is another aircraft =
which
could use the 6000 altitude. You've received no communications from =
the
aircraft on a cruise (except the acknowlegement of the clearance). Do =
you
consider the 6000 foot alititude vacant?
=20
Same question, but the cruise aircraft has reported descending to =
4000. Has
his report of a descent vacated the 6000 foot altitude? (no bobbing =
back up)
=20
Same question, but instead of a cruise question, it's a "descend at =
pilot's
discretion to 2000". The pilot acknowleges the clearance, and later =
is
observed at 4000 feet, having not reported the descent.
=20
Same question, same airplane, but in this case the pilot reported =
descending
from 6000 to 4000.
=20
So, in which cases does 6000 no longer belong to the pilot, in your =
eyes and
actions?
=20
Jose
=20

In my experience, if the controller needs an altitude I will be =
vacating,
I'll either not get a Pilot's Discretion descent, or else I'll get a =
request to
"Report leaving altitude or flight level".
I like it that way. There's less opportunity to misconstrue intentions.
---JRC---