Seaplane down off Miami Beach....

Thanks, Jim.

Here's the write-up that contains the actual video URL:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/20/miami.crash/

(You have to suffer through a Dodge truck commercial to see it, though...)

The wing clearly departed the airframe before the crash. I wonder if these
old birds are simply fatigued?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

My guess is that they had a loose or broken fuel line,
caught fire and the fuel vapor exploded and the fire melted
the spar enough for it to fail.. The airplane seems to have
been very sturdy, since the fuselage is intact after the
impact.

Thanks.


--
Merry Christmas
Have a Safe and Happy New Year
Live Long and Prosper
Jim Macklin
--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:aASpf.660077$xm3.524670@attbi_s21...
| Thanks, Jim.
|
| Here's the write-up that contains the actual video URL:
|
| http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/20/miami.crash/
|
| (You have to suffer through a Dodge truck commercial to
see it, though...)
|
| The wing clearly departed the airframe before the crash.
I wonder if these
| old birds are simply fatigued?
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination"
|
|

My guess is that they had a loose or broken fuel line,
caught fire and the fuel vapor exploded and the fire melted
the spar enough for it to fail.

Boy, I sure hope that's "all" it was. (Who'd ever think we'd be saying that
kind of stuff?)

With everyone describing an "explosion" (which the video tends to
support) -- and Chalk's not having to do much in the way of security
screening, as a small carrier -- this could easily have been some kind of a
nut-job with a shoe bomb and a "cause".

And *then* we'd start seeing all sorts of stupid proposals for "enhanced
security" that we don't want or need.

Sad to say, a mechanical problem is the best-case scenario.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

My guess is that they had a loose or broken fuel line,
caught fire and the fuel vapor exploded and the fire melted
the spar enough for it to fail.


Boy, I sure hope that's "all" it was. (Who'd ever think we'd be saying that
kind of stuff?)

With everyone describing an "explosion" (which the video tends to
support) -- and Chalk's not having to do much in the way of security
screening, as a small carrier -- this could easily have been some kind of a
nut-job with a shoe bomb and a "cause".

That seems unlikely as the video seems to show the fuselage pretty well
intact and the wing separated. Unless the wing has a luggage locker, I
doubt it was a bomb.


Matt

Jay

A monday morning WAG.

Turbine (disk) blew up and destroyed enough of the wing structure that
it failed.

Fuel tank(s) in wing then dumped fuel on hot parts of turbine and
caught fire.

Wingless (one wing) fuselage impacted water and broken off wing
floated down burning until it hit the water.

Lets see if my years of experience with accidents guessed right on
this bad accident.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:08:24 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

My guess is that they had a loose or broken fuel line,
caught fire and the fuel vapor exploded and the fire melted
the spar enough for it to fail.

Boy, I sure hope that's "all" it was. (Who'd ever think we'd be saying that
kind of stuff?)

With everyone describing an "explosion" (which the video tends to
support) -- and Chalk's not having to do much in the way of security
screening, as a small carrier -- this could easily have been some kind of a
nut-job with a shoe bomb and a "cause".

And *then* we'd start seeing all sorts of stupid proposals for "enhanced
security" that we don't want or need.

Sad to say, a mechanical problem is the best-case scenario.

The PT6 is mounted above and forward of the wing leading
edge, if the turbine had a failure, the bits and pieces are
not likely to impact the wing. But, if that happened
there will be positive evidence.

The PT6 is a pretty small turbine, they don't have many
problems internal to the engine.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
Merry Christmas
Have a Safe and Happy New Year
Live Long and Prosper
Jim Macklin
"Big John" wrote in message
...
| Jay
|
| A monday morning WAG.
|
| Turbine (disk) blew up and destroyed enough of the wing
structure that
| it failed.
|
| Fuel tank(s) in wing then dumped fuel on hot parts of
turbine and
| caught fire.
|
| Wingless (one wing) fuselage impacted water and broken off
wing
| floated down burning until it hit the water.
|
| Lets see if my years of experience with accidents guessed
right on
| this bad accident.
|
| Big John
|
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````
|
| On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:08:24 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
| wrote:
|
| My guess is that they had a loose or broken fuel line,
| caught fire and the fuel vapor exploded and the fire
melted
| the spar enough for it to fail.
|
| Boy, I sure hope that's "all" it was. (Who'd ever think
we'd be saying that
| kind of stuff?)
|
| With everyone describing an "explosion" (which the video
tends to
| support) -- and Chalk's not having to do much in the way
of security
| screening, as a small carrier -- this could easily have
been some kind of a
| nut-job with a shoe bomb and a "cause".
|
| And *then* we'd start seeing all sorts of stupid
proposals for "enhanced
| security" that we don't want or need.
|
| Sad to say, a mechanical problem is the best-case
scenario.
|

I'm wondering if fitting turbine engines on the old airframes
didn't pull something loose in the wing/mount.

This thing's just a heart breaker. I see them flying all the
time when I'm in Miami. They've been flying off Watson Island
forever. I've always thought it would be fun to fly with them
over to the Bahamas.


Jim Macklin wrote:
My guess is that they had a loose or broken fuel line,
caught fire and the fuel vapor exploded and the fire melted
the spar enough for it to fail.. The airplane seems to have
been very sturdy, since the fuselage is intact after the
impact.

Thanks.

More likely that a fuel line was not properly safetied or
otherwise failed. Turbine engines have fuel pressures as
high a 1,000 PSI, so the fuel system in the engine is highly
stressed. The fuel supply pumps are high capacity and 50 to
100 PSI, so again, the fuel connections and lines are
stressed.

If there was a fuel leak into the nacelle, wing root area,
any source of ignition could cause an explosion and the
resulting fire would soften the aluminum spar quickly. The
emergency procedure for a fire is to shut off the fuel
valves, but if the failure was between the tank and fuel
tank or the valve was damaged, it might not be possible to
shut the fuel off.

The NTSB is very good at investigating this type of failure,
the will track melted and bent metal, see the pattern of
soot and follow the fractures in the metal.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
Merry Christmas
Have a Safe and Happy New Year
Live Long and Prosper
Jim Macklin
"Otis Winslow" wrote in message
...
| I'm wondering if fitting turbine engines on the old
airframes
| didn't pull something loose in the wing/mount.
|
| This thing's just a heart breaker. I see them flying all
the
| time when I'm in Miami. They've been flying off Watson
Island
| forever. I've always thought it would be fun to fly with
them
| over to the Bahamas.
|
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| My guess is that they had a loose or broken fuel line,
| caught fire and the fuel vapor exploded and the fire
melted
| the spar enough for it to fail.. The airplane seems to
have
| been very sturdy, since the fuselage is intact after the
| impact.
|
| Thanks.
|
|

This news article
(http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/20/D8EKBRTG0.html) says that the
wing was recovered from the water today, and the engine and prop are
still attached. There's even a photo showing it. Looks like the wing
separated pretty well inboard of the engine. At this point,
speculation seems that either a fuel leak/fire melting the spar... or
perhaps just simple plain structural failure of the spar with the fire
happening afterwards could both possibly explain the wing separation.


Jim Macklin wrote:
More likely that a fuel line was not properly safetied or
otherwise failed. Turbine engines have fuel pressures as
high a 1,000 PSI, so the fuel system in the engine is highly
stressed. The fuel supply pumps are high capacity and 50 to
100 PSI, so again, the fuel connections and lines are
stressed.

If there was a fuel leak into the nacelle, wing root area,
any source of ignition could cause an explosion and the
resulting fire would soften the aluminum spar quickly. The
emergency procedure for a fire is to shut off the fuel
valves, but if the failure was between the tank and fuel
tank or the valve was damaged, it might not be possible to
shut the fuel off.

The NTSB is very good at investigating this type of failure,
the will track melted and bent metal, see the pattern of
soot and follow the fractures in the metal.

The Chalk Island web site says that their airplanes were in
the shop for the engine changes and complete mechanical
refurbishment and new paint/interiors.

There should be some preliminary data released by the NTSB
before Christmas or New Year, I would expect.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
Merry Christmas
Have a Safe and Happy New Year
Live Long and Prosper
Jim Macklin
wrote in message
ps.com...
| This news article
| (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/20/D8EKBRTG0.html)
says that the
| wing was recovered from the water today, and the engine
and prop are
| still attached. There's even a photo showing it. Looks
like the wing
| separated pretty well inboard of the engine. At this
point,
| speculation seems that either a fuel leak/fire melting the
spar... or
| perhaps just simple plain structural failure of the spar
with the fire
| happening afterwards could both possibly explain the wing
separation.
|
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| More likely that a fuel line was not properly safetied
or
| otherwise failed. Turbine engines have fuel pressures
as
| high a 1,000 PSI, so the fuel system in the engine is
highly
| stressed. The fuel supply pumps are high capacity and
50 to
| 100 PSI, so again, the fuel connections and lines are
| stressed.
|
| If there was a fuel leak into the nacelle, wing root
area,
| any source of ignition could cause an explosion and the
| resulting fire would soften the aluminum spar quickly.
The
| emergency procedure for a fire is to shut off the fuel
| valves, but if the failure was between the tank and fuel
| tank or the valve was damaged, it might not be possible
to
| shut the fuel off.
|
| The NTSB is very good at investigating this type of
failure,
| the will track melted and bent metal, see the pattern of
| soot and follow the fractures in the metal.
|
|