Go-around - my first sighting

Jim Macklin wrote:
It may have been a test flight, checking avionics,
auto-pilot, etc. The crew may also have been in training.
Maybe they just needed a few more minutes to complete some
flight time experience requirement and a go-around was
better than and would use less time than another flight
cycle.

I've heard of 737's 'in the pattern' at Castle AFB.
On that runway, they can probably do a couple of Touch
and goes on each pass.

gerald

A lot of operators do not allow touch and goes, due the
perceived risks. But they could do a stop and go.


--
Merry Christmas
Have a Safe and Happy New Year
Live Long and Prosper
Jim Macklin
"GS" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| It may have been a test flight, checking avionics,
| auto-pilot, etc. The crew may also have been in
training.
| Maybe they just needed a few more minutes to complete
some
| flight time experience requirement and a go-around was
| better than and would use less time than another flight
| cycle.
|
| I've heard of 737's 'in the pattern' at Castle AFB.
| On that runway, they can probably do a couple of Touch
| and goes on each pass.
|
| gerald

Jim Macklin wrote:
A lot of operators do not allow touch and goes, due the
perceived risks. But they could do a stop and go.

I can't imagine a jet doing this even at castle. I've
heard these were non-commercial 737's (private or other)

Gerald

A big issue is brake heat, you do need to give the binders
time to cool and the air flow while the gear is down and
locked after take-off and on final helps a lot.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"GS" wrote in message
et...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| A lot of operators do not allow touch and goes, due the
| perceived risks. But they could do a stop and go.
|
| I can't imagine a jet doing this even at castle. I've
| heard these were non-commercial 737's (private or other)
|
| Gerald

Jim Macklin wrote:
A big issue is brake heat, you do need to give the binders
time to cool and the air flow while the gear is down and
locked after take-off and on final helps a lot.

you mean stopping a few hundred thousand pounds going 140 knots
in 6000 feet generates heat???? ;-)

Speaking of which, just read on the NTSB website that there
was yet another Cirrus that burned up from the brakes during
an extended taxi. There have been many of these. One of
these was in my flying club. The plane was squawked for
a dragging brake apparently MANY times and was signed off
every time. And they supposedly rebuilt it "good as new."
Hmmmm.....

Gerald

("GS" wrote)
Speaking of which, just read on the NTSB website that there
was yet another Cirrus that burned up from the brakes during
an extended taxi. There have been many of these. One of
these was in my flying club. The plane was squawked for
a dragging brake apparently MANY times and was signed off
every time. And they supposedly rebuilt it "good as new."
Hmmmm.....


http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/540-full.html#191252
Cirrus To Issue SB On Brake Overheating, Fires
AvWeb 12-25-05

"The SB will call for the installation of color-changing temperature sensors
on the brake components so that pilots can tell -- during the preflight --
if the brakes have been previously overheated. Cirrus spokesman Ian Bentley
said overheating can cause failure of an O-ring. Failure of the O-ring
allows flammable brake fluid to leak onto potentially hot parts. If they're
hot enough, the brake fluid ignites and causes a stubborn fire that can
really make a mess of a low-wing plastic airplane."


Montblack

"GS" wrote

Speaking of which, just read on the NTSB website that there
was yet another Cirrus that burned up from the brakes during
an extended taxi. There have been many of these. One of
these was in my flying club.

Nah, nothing wrong with the brakes! It is all pilot error, according to
Cirrus.

It was interesting to note that they are offering a retrofit of a larger
brake package. They also said it will not even be an option on new planes.
With thinking like that, how long will it be until they start to go the way
of Cessna, and Piper?

In most industries that are healthy, the customer is always right. Give
them what they want. My prediction is that before '06 is out, it will be an
option. Any takers?
--
Jim in NC

Back in 1968 (about) there was an AD on the Beech Musketeer
because the parking brake would vibrate and engage during
flight, the system worked by locking the pressure from
applied normal brakes in the master cylinders. When you
landed, you could have one or both main wheels locked or
just dragging, depending on whether you had applied pressure
to the brakes in flight. This happened to me at SPI in the
winter, landing on Rwy 22 which was partially snow and ice
packed. I touched down on the ice and everything was fine
until I hit a dry area. The airplane yawed about 20 degrees
to the right in just a second or two. Full left rudder and
power straightened it out. When I got to the ramp and we
examined the airplane, 4 of the six plies in the new tire
had been cut through and flat spotted. This may have one of
the incidents that prompted the AD note.

Cirrus could have a similar problem.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Morgans" wrote in message
...
|
| "GS" wrote
|
| Speaking of which, just read on the NTSB website that
there
| was yet another Cirrus that burned up from the brakes
during
| an extended taxi. There have been many of these. One
of
| these was in my flying club.
|
| Nah, nothing wrong with the brakes! It is all pilot
error, according to
| Cirrus.
|
| It was interesting to note that they are offering a
retrofit of a larger
| brake package. They also said it will not even be an
option on new planes.
| With thinking like that, how long will it be until they
start to go the way
| of Cessna, and Piper?
|
| In most industries that are healthy, the customer is
always right. Give
| them what they want. My prediction is that before '06 is
out, it will be an
| option. Any takers?
| --
| Jim in NC
|

War stories after a lesson...if I remember the specs, the
Beechjet 400 brakes are rated for 7,000,000 foot pounds of
heat dissipation, which is more than one max weight landing
will generate. But [war story]; a number of years ago I was
flying a King Air 300 for a guy who just bought the airplane
and had hired a pilot who was not rated to fly the big King
Air. He was based out of Addison at Ft. Worth and I flew
down on the airlines to take them to Palm Springs to play
golf. While I was at Ft. Worth one of the mechanics, who
was doing a brake job on a Beechjet asked me if I was rated
in the Beechjet [he had heard so from somebody]. I said yes
and asked what he wanted to now.
He said he was doing the brake job and wanted to know about
breaking in the brakes. I told him that the procedure was
covered in the service manual and involved making several
medium speed runs on the runway and making firm brake
application. I said it was three runs at 30 kts to heat the
metallic linings and get them "cooked." I also said to be
sure and check the manual and be sure the pilot or mechanic
doing the runs be properly briefed, since the brake job [at
that time] was $16,000 in parts.
I got back two days later and taxied the King Air up to the
hanger and saw the Beechjet sitting on the ramp just back
from the break-in runs. But they had just winged it, 3 runs
at 80-90 knots. The right strut had already collapsed, the
tire blew out the fuse plugs and the brakes had caught on
fire. While I was just there, the left strut and fuse plug
blew and the left side caught fire. That brake job may have
cost a 1/4 million because they didn't bother to read the
manual RTFM.

Another time I was at OKC and taxied past an OK ANG C130
with a good size fire in the right mains. They had been
working in the pattern. I advised the tower and they told
the ANG crew which stopped and got out their fire equipment
while waiting for the airport fire dept. to arrive.

FAR 91 allows pilots do some brake work, be sure to do it by
the manual, a dragging brake can put you in the grass or
burn up the airplane.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P



"GS" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| A big issue is brake heat, you do need to give the
binders
| time to cool and the air flow while the gear is down and
| locked after take-off and on final helps a lot.
|
| you mean stopping a few hundred thousand pounds going 140
knots
| in 6000 feet generates heat???? ;-)
|
| Speaking of which, just read on the NTSB website that
there
| was yet another Cirrus that burned up from the brakes
during
| an extended taxi. There have been many of these. One of
| these was in my flying club. The plane was squawked for
| a dragging brake apparently MANY times and was signed off
| every time. And they supposedly rebuilt it "good as new."
| Hmmmm.....
|
| Gerald
|
|
|

"GS" wrote in message
...
[...]
Speaking of which, just read on the NTSB website that there
was yet another Cirrus that burned up from the brakes during
an extended taxi.

By a pilot misusing the brakes.

The Cirrus isn't the only airplane out there with a free-castering
nosewheel. My airplane is one, and there are a number of other makes and
models with a similar design.

When I first learned to taxi without nosewheel steering, I did get the
brakes really hot. Smokin' hot. Literally. Obviously, not good for the
brakes. Thankfully, I learned the proper taxi technique without having to
go through that mistake twice.

But when I got the brakes that hot, it wasn't an issue of an "extended
taxi". It's that the brakes really don't need to be used that much, no
matter how far you're taxiing. Slight, infrequent adjustments are all that
are necessary. Someone using the brakes so much that they heat up enough to
cause damage to the airplane is taxiing VERY clumsily.

I suppose the issue might be of some interest to people who argue that the
Cirrus is being sold to lower-experience pilots, resulting in a
higher-than-normal rate of problems. The brakes would be just one more
example of that; same design in other airplanes doesn't cause nearly the
same number of issues (just because an airplane isn't make of fiberglass,
that doesn't mean it can handle having the brakes overheat regularly). It's
not clear why, otherwise, Cirrus would need this Service Bulletin that
Montblack mentioned, when none of the other types have needed one.

Pete