We're getting old, folks...

Jack wrote:

Tom Conner wrote:

Personally, I think the mindset required to master the technical details
associated with learning to fly is similar to the mindset needed to
get an
engineering degree.


I hope not.

Not being an engineer, my perception of what it would involve might turn
me to the law instead. The flying mindset could be related to both, I
suppose, but I am thankful I never had to find out first-hand.

Well, I am an engineer and I don't think it has much to do with learning
to fly. To me learning to fly was more like what I've heard is more
typical with medicine or law - lots of memorization, but little
analytical thinking.

I enjoyed engineering, in particulary math, physics and engineering
mechanics as I only had to memorize a few basic laws and principles and
could derive the rest as needed. When I took chemistry and biology, it
was almost entirely memorization. I found that boring.

Flying was also (other than the manual skills part obviously) all about
memorizing FARS, AIM procedures, etc., and little analytical stuff. The
instrument rating required visualization for situational awareness that
was interesting to me as that was about the closed to engineering that
I've seen during my flying career, but even then much of the instrument
rating was memorizing more FARs, chart symbols, procedures for lost
comm, etc.

I'm curious, what is your perception of what engineering involves?


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:

I'm curious, what is your perception of what engineering involves?

Not flying.


Jack

Jack wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:

I'm curious, what is your perception of what engineering involves?


Not flying.

Interesting. Of all of my flying colleagues where I work, I think more
are engineers than any other field.


Matt

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 13:04:58 GMT, Matt Whiting
wrote:

Jack wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:

I'm curious, what is your perception of what engineering involves?


Not flying.

Interesting. Of all of my flying colleagues where I work, I think more
are engineers than any other field.

Certainly! Where else can you find so many different toys in one
package?

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:
Jack wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

I'm curious, what is your perception of what engineering involves?

Not flying.

Interesting. Of all of my flying colleagues where I work, I think more
are engineers than any other field.

Well then, what you need is the context: military pilot, nine years;
airline pilot, thirty yrs; recreational sailplane pilot, three yrs so far.

I wouldn't have done anything to dilute those professional experiences
and/or the family life during my career. Flying was all I wanted to do,
and engineering would have been somewhat down the list of alternatives.

But that's just me. A very few are able to combine the two careers
fully, as in test-piloting.

We also have airline pilots who are MD's, dentists, lawyers, etc., etc.
but that sounds an awfully lot like work. Combining airline flying with
ANG or military Reserve flying can also lead to a very rigorous schedule.

Recreational flying is not in the same league.


Jack

Jack wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:

Jack wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

I'm curious, what is your perception of what engineering involves?


Not flying.


Interesting. Of all of my flying colleagues where I work, I think more
are engineers than any other field.


Well then, what you need is the context: military pilot, nine years;
airline pilot, thirty yrs; recreational sailplane pilot, three yrs so far.

I wouldn't have done anything to dilute those professional experiences
and/or the family life during my career. Flying was all I wanted to do,
and engineering would have been somewhat down the list of alternatives.

But that's just me. A very few are able to combine the two careers
fully, as in test-piloting.

We also have airline pilots who are MD's, dentists, lawyers, etc., etc.
but that sounds an awfully lot like work. Combining airline flying with
ANG or military Reserve flying can also lead to a very rigorous schedule.

Recreational flying is not in the same league.

Yes, I was certainly talking about professions other than flying.

Matt

Well then, what you need is the context:

The context being that most professional pilots are not practicing
engineers? Obviously. Engineering is generally project based, and
thus not something that can easily be done part time. Can't put the
project on hold while you fly a five-day to Norita.

We also have airline pilots who are MD's, dentists, lawyers, etc., etc.
but that sounds an awfully lot like work.

Actually, you don't. What you have is a lot of MD's, dentists,
lawyers, etc., etc., who are also airline pilots. There's a
difference. I know lots of MD's, JD's, PhD's and such who pick up an
ATP certificate in their spare time, just for the hell of it, even
though they generally don't have anything like the spare time an
airline pilot has. I have yet to meet an airline pilot who has ever
picked up an MD, JD, PhD, or even a BE in his copious spare time. The
level of achievement involved is dramatically different.

I do know several airline pilots who started out in engineering school.
Not all flunked out of engineering and had to change majors - one I
know actually managed to graduate with a C average. He's a captain at
the majors now, twenty years seniority, driving a Boeing around,
figuring out how to live on less than an engineer a dedade his junior
makes and what to do about his retirement, and wishing he'd developed
some actual skills. I suppose with legacy carriers all going bankrupt
as the low cost operators eat their lunch, there's a lot of that going
around.

That's not to say that none of the A students in engineering become
professional pilots. Some do. You find them in flight test, the
astronaut program, etc. Airlines? Not so much, though every once in a
while you will see one doing it as a retirement gig or a diversion from
his consulting business.

Recreational flying is not in the same league.

Recreational flying is what you make it. Of course a pilot with 100
hours can't be in the same league as one with 10,000, but in my
experience, a recreational pilot is generally a better pilot than an
airline pilot with the same number of hours. Maybe it's because you
can't swing a dead cat at the airport without hitting a few engineers.

Michael

"Michael" wrote
Recreational flying is what you make it. Of course a pilot with
100 hours can't be in the same league as one with 10,000, but in
my experience, a recreational pilot is generally a better pilot
than an airline pilot with the same number of hours. Maybe it's
because you can't swing a dead cat at the airport without
hitting a few engineers.

Michael...
You're full of Bull****!! For a couple of hours, the RecPilot just
might fly his toy a bit better than the airline pilot, but I would
just like to see a RecPilot even attempt a takeoff in an Airbus.

Bob Moore
Electrical Engineering, Georgia Tech
US Navy, VP-21 P-2V, VP-46 P-3B
Pan American World Airways, B-707, B-727
Air Florida, Chief Pilot, Director Flight Operations
FAA ATP ASMEL, CFI ASEL/INST

You're full of Bull****!! For a couple of hours, the RecPilot just
might fly his toy a bit better than the airline pilot, but I would
just like to see a RecPilot even attempt a takeoff in an Airbus.

A good friend of mine flew an Airbus. Based on what he said, you're
right - the very high time rec pilot will have a hard time with it.
It's more suited to kids who spend a lot of time playing flight
simulator.

The high time rec pilot winds up doing different things - like shooting
an ILS to mins at night, in an airplane he only got into that morning,
with no operative directional gyro and no compass light (thus no
heading indication at all) - or some equivalent mess. Single pilot.
Usually before he hits 2000 hours. I know lots of airline guys at 2000
hours, mostly in the right seat of the regionals, and I can't think of
one who could pull something like that off.

By the time they hit 10,000 hours it's a different story - they're
usually better than the 2000 hour rec pilot, having gotten good through
sheer repetition - but the rare 10,000 hour rec pilot you see is truly
amazing, head and shoulders above the average 10,000 hour airline guy.
I was fortunate enough to learn from one. He taught me to fly an
aerobatic biplane in 90 minutes. The 10,000 hour airline guy who tried
before him only succeeded in scaring me.

Michael

I'm curious, what is your perception of what engineering involves?

Not flying.

I don't know about Jack's opinion, but at my father's urging I looked hard
and long at the engineering curriculum in college -- and ran screaming in
terror back to the college of liberal arts.

I don't know how anyone could survive in that school -- but my hat's off to
those who could.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"