Report Leaving Assigned Altitude?

wrote in message ...

I have a similar background. When I was flying the air carrier aircraft,
the company I worked for had as policy that its crews would report
leaving a previously assigned altitude, whether PD or not.

There reasoning was it removed any possibility of ambiguity.


Where was ambiguity possible?



When there are two options, and there is any doubt as to which is
right (or wrong) exercise the option that has the least cost if wrong.


What is the cost?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

wrote in message ...

I have a similar background. When I was flying the air carrier
aircraft,
the company I worked for had as policy that its crews would report
leaving a previously assigned altitude, whether PD or not.

There reasoning was it removed any possibility of ambiguity.


Where was ambiguity possible?

In the real world to which most of us belong, ambiguity is not just
possible, it is likely. Busy people doing somewhat stressful work forget
things all the time.


When there are two options, and there is any doubt as to which is
right (or wrong) exercise the option that has the least cost if wrong.


What is the cost?

What is the cost to you as a controller in responding "copy" or whatever
(whatever can = no response at all) to a call of "XYZ departing FLABC",
especially if the radio is not busy? I know the cost to me as the pilot is
a nagging uncertainty that the controller isn't paying full attention,
doesn't know I've started, and will run someone into me. Silly? Unlikely?
Very probably so. But what is the cost for the above radio exchange and my
peace of mind? You (generic) being ****y because I gave you some info on an
otherwise clear radio freq? I can live with that.

JB

"Jim Baker" wrote in message
...

In the real world to which most of us belong, ambiguity is not just
possible, it is likely. Busy people doing somewhat stressful work forget
things all the time.


Swell, but where is ambiguity possible?



What is the cost to you as a controller in responding "copy" or whatever
(whatever can = no response at all) to a call of "XYZ departing
FLABC", especially if the radio is not busy?


None. So what is the cost of not reporting?



I know the cost to me as the pilot is
a nagging uncertainty that the controller isn't paying full attention,
doesn't know I've started, and will run someone into me. Silly?
Unlikely? Very probably so. But what is the cost for the above radio
exchange and my peace of mind?


How does that give you peace of mind?



You (generic) being ****y because I gave you some info on an
otherwise clear radio freq? I can live with that.


Me be ****y?

Jim Baker wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

wrote in message ...

I have a similar background. When I was flying the air carrier

aircraft,

the company I worked for had as policy that its crews would report
leaving a previously assigned altitude, whether PD or not.

There reasoning was it removed any possibility of ambiguity.


Where was ambiguity possible?


In the real world to which most of us belong, ambiguity is not just
possible, it is likely. Busy people doing somewhat stressful work forget
things all the time.

I think his point is that a cruise clearance is simply not ambiguous.
It is spelled out very clearly and the rules are clear, not ambiguous.
What do you think is ambiguous about it?

Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:

I think his point is that a cruise clearance is simply not ambiguous.
It is spelled out very clearly and the rules are clear, not ambiguous.
What do you think is ambiguous about it?

Matt

The thread is getting mature, but I believe "ambiguous" was in the context of a
PD clearance, not a cruise clearance.

wrote in message ...


"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:

I think his point is that a cruise clearance is simply not ambiguous.
It is spelled out very clearly and the rules are clear, not ambiguous.
What do you think is ambiguous about it?

Matt

The thread is getting mature, but I believe "ambiguous" was in the context
of a
PD clearance, not a cruise clearance.

Correct. That is what I was referring to.

Jim Baker wrote:
wrote in message ...


"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:


I think his point is that a cruise clearance is simply not ambiguous.
It is spelled out very clearly and the rules are clear, not ambiguous.
What do you think is ambiguous about it?

Matt

The thread is getting mature, but I believe "ambiguous" was in the context

of a

PD clearance, not a cruise clearance.


Correct. That is what I was referring to.



Ok ... so where's the ambiguity in a PD clearance?


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...
Jim Baker wrote:
wrote in message ...


"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:


I think his point is that a cruise clearance is simply not ambiguous.
It is spelled out very clearly and the rules are clear, not ambiguous.
What do you think is ambiguous about it?

Matt

The thread is getting mature, but I believe "ambiguous" was in the
context

of a

PD clearance, not a cruise clearance.


Correct. That is what I was referring to.



Ok ... so where's the ambiguity in a PD clearance?


Matt

OK, I looked up the word "ambiguity" in the dictionary (online) and the
second def is "uncertainty". Without rereading all the threads, I believe
the point Sammy and I were trying to make is that, through our years of
flying, we've found that sometimes controllers make mistakes, as do pilots.
With ref to PD, we have found that occassionally if a PD isn't started
pretty soon after it's been issued, a controller can forget he issued it,
change shifts or stations and not give a good briefing, or whatever. I have
been asked, a few times, several minutes after being issued a PD and prior
to starting down, if I have started it yet. This while above FL180. This
query from ATC caused uncertainty, some might say ambiguity, in my mind
because I believed he was tracking my altitude. Perhaps he was just being
polite and was telling me to get my ass down, dunno. At any rate, I'm of
the opinion, through 30+ years of flying in the U.S. and Central/South
America, that communication with ATC is good. Therefore, if I don't start a
PD immediately after it's been issued, I remove the uncertainty from my
mind, and possibly from the controllers mind ("have you started yet?"), by
making a short radio transmission on an uncongested frequency. I don't
think it costs the controllers anything to hear this, and it provides me
comfort knowing I've alerted the controller to what I'm doing.

That's it. No more discussion from me on such a trivial point. I want to
do it, it doesn't violate anything, it makes me feel that things are safer,
and, speaking for Sammy (perhaps I shouldn't), that's the end of the
conversation on this silly subthread.

JB

wrote:

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:


I think his point is that a cruise clearance is simply not ambiguous.
It is spelled out very clearly and the rules are clear, not ambiguous.
What do you think is ambiguous about it?

Matt


The thread is getting mature, but I believe "ambiguous" was in the context of a
PD clearance, not a cruise clearance.


Yes, it did seem to switch gears. However, neither is ambiguous, so I'm
still curious to see an example of ambiguity.


Matt

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:


Where was ambiguity possible?

More than once at my airline a PD descent clearance was issued, then a handoff
subsequently made to another sector. The receiving controller did not know
about the PD clearance.




When there are two options, and there is any doubt as to which is
right (or wrong) exercise the option that has the least cost if wrong.


What is the cost?

See first answer above.