Angry [More Info]

Morgans wrote:
Hilton wrote:
Jay Honeck wrote:
And also perhaps another example (together with the stats) that Private
pilots need more (real) instrument time that what's required by Part
61.

Do you really think that would have helped?

Yes Jay, I do believe training improves a pilot's skills.

Keeping in mind that better flying skills will not always save your butt,
training does not always teach someone to have better decision making
skills. I've got to think that was the biggest contributor, in this case,
don't you?

I agree 100% with you. Here are my thoughts. This guy just finished
training, went through the practical and passed; i.e. proficient per the
requirements. He couldn't handle the IMC, and the statistics say that many
many others couldn't too; i.e. the ones who crash. So, why then do we teach
instrument skills? Either pilots need to be proficient enough to be able to
do a 180 - that's all this pilot needed to do, or not. If not, scrap the 3
hours from Part 61. If they should be able to fly (to safety) in IMC, then
IMHO pilots need a lot more instrument training for their private. Bottom
line, this scenario is so high on the 'killer' list, clearly something is
wrong with the requirement and/or training.

Having said all that, yes, the decision to go was extremely bad - that's why
I called this thread 'Angry'. But once the pilot was in IMC, why could he
not do a 180 after he had just very recently finished the training and
checkride to do just that?

Hilton

Recently, Hilton posted:

Having said all that, yes, the decision to go was extremely bad -
that's why I called this thread 'Angry'. But once the pilot was in
IMC, why could he not do a 180 after he had just very recently
finished the training and checkride to do just that?

As I read it, part of the problem was that he was lost, as it sounded like
he was in IMC soon after he was up. So, the likely outcome is that he
would have crashed elsewhere.

Neil

Neil Gould wrote:
Recently, Hilton posted:

Having said all that, yes, the decision to go was extremely bad -
that's why I called this thread 'Angry'. But once the pilot was in
IMC, why could he not do a 180 after he had just very recently
finished the training and checkride to do just that?

As I read it, part of the problem was that he was lost, as it sounded like
he was in IMC soon after he was up. So, the likely outcome is that he
would have crashed elsewhere.

He took off, turned east, flew a few minutes, and entered IMC. Kinda
obvious the airport was west. Sure he asked ATC to get back to the airport,
but he wasn't lost in the sense that he didn't know his (approximate)
position.

Saying "...the likely outcome is that he would have crashed elsewhere."
doesn't make sense. I have heard numerous ATC recordings of people that fly
into IMC and had ATC to help them to a VFR airport. Had this pilot
maintained control of the aircraft using instruments, I have no doubt ATC
could have vectored him back to E16 or even SJC.

Hilton

Recently, Hilton posted:

Neil Gould wrote:
Recently, Hilton posted:

Having said all that, yes, the decision to go was extremely bad -
that's why I called this thread 'Angry'. But once the pilot was in
IMC, why could he not do a 180 after he had just very recently
finished the training and checkride to do just that?

As I read it, part of the problem was that he was lost, as it
sounded like he was in IMC soon after he was up. So, the likely
outcome is that he would have crashed elsewhere.

He took off, turned east, flew a few minutes, and entered IMC. Kinda
obvious the airport was west. Sure he asked ATC to get back to the
airport, but he wasn't lost in the sense that he didn't know his
(approximate) position.

What lead me to this conclusion is that he only flew "... a few
minutes...", which isn't very far in a 172, before calling ATC. He should
have still been in visual range of the airport. Therefore, I suspect that
the much of the area (if not all of it) was IMC, and he chose to take off
in it anyway.

Neil

In article . net,
"Hilton" wrote:

Neil Gould wrote:
Recently, Hilton posted:

Having said all that, yes, the decision to go was extremely bad -
that's why I called this thread 'Angry'. But once the pilot was in
IMC, why could he not do a 180 after he had just very recently
finished the training and checkride to do just that?

As I read it, part of the problem was that he was lost, as it sounded like
he was in IMC soon after he was up. So, the likely outcome is that he
would have crashed elsewhere.

He took off, turned east, flew a few minutes, and entered IMC. Kinda
obvious the airport was west. Sure he asked ATC to get back to the airport,
but he wasn't lost in the sense that he didn't know his (approximate)
position.

Saying "...the likely outcome is that he would have crashed elsewhere."
doesn't make sense. I have heard numerous ATC recordings of people that fly
into IMC and had ATC to help them to a VFR airport. Had this pilot
maintained control of the aircraft using instruments, I have no doubt ATC
could have vectored him back to E16 or even SJC.

Hilton

There is another factor not mentioned here. About 10 years ago, a friend
did some radar surveying for San Jose and found a radar hole in the
vicinity of South County, up to about 3000 ft. It is possible that the
pilot, thinking he would have instantaneous radar, took off, attempted
to raise SJC Approach and maintained heading right into the hills.

There is no excuse for his instructor(s) or flight school to turn him
loose without at least a rudimentary knowledge of the risks involved
with scudrunning (especially at night, in the hills).

--
Remve "_" from email to reply to me personally.

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
There is another factor not mentioned here. About 10 years ago, a friend
did some radar surveying for San Jose and found a radar hole in the
vicinity of South County, up to about 3000 ft. It is possible that the
pilot, thinking he would have instantaneous radar, took off, attempted
to raise SJC Approach and maintained heading right into the hills.

Orval,

I have flown in that area MANY times (I fly out of RHV) and never heard of
that radar hole, I've also never heard ATC even mention it to me or anyone
else. Do you have any additional information on it? have they 'plugged the
hole' by now?

I find it very surprising that he took off and called SJC tower which is
23nm NW when he was going East. They could pick him up and correctly handed
him off the Departure. Why did he call the tower? Perhaps he didn't
know/remember the freq of Departure, perhaps his papers fell on the floor,
perhaps he already had his hands full with the IMC and did a little CRM,
perhaps it was his inexperience... For a low time pilot, dialling in
120.7/124.0, calling them, squawking some number and identing, waiting,
having them say "sorry, call 120.1", dialing that in, calling them, etc...
must have been a huge distraction given the 'bad' conditions he was in.
Just some things that jumped out at me while reading the report.

But again, a visit to Starbucks on that cloudy night would have been the
better option. Sad.

FYI: The crash site was only 4nm east of E16.

Hilton

Oops, I meant SJC Tower "couldn't pick him up" - the report says: "San Jose
was unable to make radar contact with the airplane and suggested NorCal
TRACON."

Hilton

In article . net,
"Hilton" wrote:

Oops, I meant SJC Tower "couldn't pick him up" - the report says: "San Jose
was unable to make radar contact with the airplane and suggested NorCal
TRACON."

Hilton

That sounds like the radar hole!

--
Remve "_" from email to reply to me personally.

In article t,
Hilton wrote:
Orval Fairbairn wrote:
There is another factor not mentioned here. About 10 years ago, a friend
did some radar surveying for San Jose and found a radar hole in the
vicinity of South County, up to about 3000 ft. It is possible that the
pilot, thinking he would have instantaneous radar, took off, attempted
to raise SJC Approach and maintained heading right into the hills.

I have flown in that area MANY times (I fly out of RHV) and never heard of
that radar hole, I've also never heard ATC even mention it to me or anyone
else. Do you have any additional information on it? have they 'plugged the
hole' by now?

Climbing out of South County, Norcal usually can't pick me up on
radar until Morgan Hill or so. Overflying South County I've had
no trouble being seen on radar at 3000ft and above. I haven't
flown out of South County in awhile, so my data point is probably
a few years old.

It would be interesting to know where the radar transmitters are
in the area. If the radar transmitters covering South County are at
SJC and MRY, they would have a hard time seeing traffic down low
near South County.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/