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Morgans wrote:
Hilton wrote: Jay Honeck wrote: And also perhaps another example (together with the stats) that Private pilots need more (real) instrument time that what's required by Part 61. Do you really think that would have helped? Yes Jay, I do believe training improves a pilot's skills. Keeping in mind that better flying skills will not always save your butt, training does not always teach someone to have better decision making skills. I've got to think that was the biggest contributor, in this case, don't you? I agree 100% with you. Here are my thoughts. This guy just finished training, went through the practical and passed; i.e. proficient per the requirements. He couldn't handle the IMC, and the statistics say that many many others couldn't too; i.e. the ones who crash. So, why then do we teach instrument skills? Either pilots need to be proficient enough to be able to do a 180 - that's all this pilot needed to do, or not. If not, scrap the 3 hours from Part 61. If they should be able to fly (to safety) in IMC, then IMHO pilots need a lot more instrument training for their private. Bottom line, this scenario is so high on the 'killer' list, clearly something is wrong with the requirement and/or training. Having said all that, yes, the decision to go was extremely bad - that's why I called this thread 'Angry'. But once the pilot was in IMC, why could he not do a 180 after he had just very recently finished the training and checkride to do just that? Hilton |
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Recently, Hilton posted:
Having said all that, yes, the decision to go was extremely bad - that's why I called this thread 'Angry'. But once the pilot was in IMC, why could he not do a 180 after he had just very recently finished the training and checkride to do just that? As I read it, part of the problem was that he was lost, as it sounded like he was in IMC soon after he was up. So, the likely outcome is that he would have crashed elsewhere. Neil |
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Neil Gould wrote:
Recently, Hilton posted: Having said all that, yes, the decision to go was extremely bad - that's why I called this thread 'Angry'. But once the pilot was in IMC, why could he not do a 180 after he had just very recently finished the training and checkride to do just that? As I read it, part of the problem was that he was lost, as it sounded like he was in IMC soon after he was up. So, the likely outcome is that he would have crashed elsewhere. He took off, turned east, flew a few minutes, and entered IMC. Kinda obvious the airport was west. Sure he asked ATC to get back to the airport, but he wasn't lost in the sense that he didn't know his (approximate) position. Saying "...the likely outcome is that he would have crashed elsewhere." doesn't make sense. I have heard numerous ATC recordings of people that fly into IMC and had ATC to help them to a VFR airport. Had this pilot maintained control of the aircraft using instruments, I have no doubt ATC could have vectored him back to E16 or even SJC. Hilton |
#4
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Recently, Hilton posted:
Neil Gould wrote: Recently, Hilton posted: Having said all that, yes, the decision to go was extremely bad - that's why I called this thread 'Angry'. But once the pilot was in IMC, why could he not do a 180 after he had just very recently finished the training and checkride to do just that? As I read it, part of the problem was that he was lost, as it sounded like he was in IMC soon after he was up. So, the likely outcome is that he would have crashed elsewhere. He took off, turned east, flew a few minutes, and entered IMC. Kinda obvious the airport was west. Sure he asked ATC to get back to the airport, but he wasn't lost in the sense that he didn't know his (approximate) position. What lead me to this conclusion is that he only flew "... a few minutes...", which isn't very far in a 172, before calling ATC. He should have still been in visual range of the airport. Therefore, I suspect that the much of the area (if not all of it) was IMC, and he chose to take off in it anyway. Neil |
#5
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In article . net,
"Hilton" wrote: Neil Gould wrote: Recently, Hilton posted: Having said all that, yes, the decision to go was extremely bad - that's why I called this thread 'Angry'. But once the pilot was in IMC, why could he not do a 180 after he had just very recently finished the training and checkride to do just that? As I read it, part of the problem was that he was lost, as it sounded like he was in IMC soon after he was up. So, the likely outcome is that he would have crashed elsewhere. He took off, turned east, flew a few minutes, and entered IMC. Kinda obvious the airport was west. Sure he asked ATC to get back to the airport, but he wasn't lost in the sense that he didn't know his (approximate) position. Saying "...the likely outcome is that he would have crashed elsewhere." doesn't make sense. I have heard numerous ATC recordings of people that fly into IMC and had ATC to help them to a VFR airport. Had this pilot maintained control of the aircraft using instruments, I have no doubt ATC could have vectored him back to E16 or even SJC. Hilton There is another factor not mentioned here. About 10 years ago, a friend did some radar surveying for San Jose and found a radar hole in the vicinity of South County, up to about 3000 ft. It is possible that the pilot, thinking he would have instantaneous radar, took off, attempted to raise SJC Approach and maintained heading right into the hills. There is no excuse for his instructor(s) or flight school to turn him loose without at least a rudimentary knowledge of the risks involved with scudrunning (especially at night, in the hills). -- Remve "_" from email to reply to me personally. |
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Orval Fairbairn wrote:
There is another factor not mentioned here. About 10 years ago, a friend did some radar surveying for San Jose and found a radar hole in the vicinity of South County, up to about 3000 ft. It is possible that the pilot, thinking he would have instantaneous radar, took off, attempted to raise SJC Approach and maintained heading right into the hills. Orval, I have flown in that area MANY times (I fly out of RHV) and never heard of that radar hole, I've also never heard ATC even mention it to me or anyone else. Do you have any additional information on it? have they 'plugged the hole' by now? I find it very surprising that he took off and called SJC tower which is 23nm NW when he was going East. They could pick him up and correctly handed him off the Departure. Why did he call the tower? Perhaps he didn't know/remember the freq of Departure, perhaps his papers fell on the floor, perhaps he already had his hands full with the IMC and did a little CRM, perhaps it was his inexperience... For a low time pilot, dialling in 120.7/124.0, calling them, squawking some number and identing, waiting, having them say "sorry, call 120.1", dialing that in, calling them, etc... must have been a huge distraction given the 'bad' conditions he was in. Just some things that jumped out at me while reading the report. But again, a visit to Starbucks on that cloudy night would have been the better option. Sad. FYI: The crash site was only 4nm east of E16. Hilton |
#7
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Oops, I meant SJC Tower "couldn't pick him up" - the report says: "San Jose
was unable to make radar contact with the airplane and suggested NorCal TRACON." Hilton |
#8
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In article . net,
"Hilton" wrote: Oops, I meant SJC Tower "couldn't pick him up" - the report says: "San Jose was unable to make radar contact with the airplane and suggested NorCal TRACON." Hilton That sounds like the radar hole! -- Remve "_" from email to reply to me personally. |
#9
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In article t,
Hilton wrote: Orval Fairbairn wrote: There is another factor not mentioned here. About 10 years ago, a friend did some radar surveying for San Jose and found a radar hole in the vicinity of South County, up to about 3000 ft. It is possible that the pilot, thinking he would have instantaneous radar, took off, attempted to raise SJC Approach and maintained heading right into the hills. I have flown in that area MANY times (I fly out of RHV) and never heard of that radar hole, I've also never heard ATC even mention it to me or anyone else. Do you have any additional information on it? have they 'plugged the hole' by now? Climbing out of South County, Norcal usually can't pick me up on radar until Morgan Hill or so. Overflying South County I've had no trouble being seen on radar at 3000ft and above. I haven't flown out of South County in awhile, so my data point is probably a few years old. It would be interesting to know where the radar transmitters are in the area. If the radar transmitters covering South County are at SJC and MRY, they would have a hard time seeing traffic down low near South County. John -- John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/ |
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