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ADIZ Violation Explained in AOPA Magazine



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 5th 06, 05:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default ADIZ Violation Explained in AOPA Magazine

Happy Dog wrote:

You fly? You couldn't do this? FSS, *any* ATC. A student should be
able to fihure this out.


You're right. Why didn't this student (Martin)? Why didn't Shaeffer?

snip Monday Morning QBing


Funny. Isn't that what you're doing?

Answer carefully: Which "twit" around here is supporting it?


Anyone who thinks it serves any useful purpose or that it doesn't
cause unnecessary problems. Like this one.


If you think I'm supporting the ADIZ, I challenge you to find a single
statement I've made in favor of it.

The fact remains Shaeffer screwed us all with this stunt and largely because
of him (and the overreaction by DC officials), we face a *permanent* ADIZ.
Now you come along and appear sympathetic to him.

Let him cry on your shoulder, if you'd like. I'm too busy dealing with the
consequences of his actions to be sympathetic to him in the least.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/TknoFlyer
http://pocketgear.com/products_searc...veloperid=4415
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  #2  
Old January 5th 06, 05:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default ADIZ Violation Explained in AOPA Magazine

The fact remains Shaeffer screwed us all with this stunt and largely because
of him (and the overreaction by DC officials), we face a *permanent* ADIZ.


Actually, I'm not convinced that the proposal for a permanent ADIZ is
triggered by or even supported by this incident.

Jose
--
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  #3  
Old January 5th 06, 06:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default ADIZ Violation Explained in AOPA Magazine

Jose wrote:

Actually, I'm not convinced that the proposal for a permanent ADIZ is
triggered by or even supported by this incident.


I am. Soon after this incident (and directly due to it) members of Congress
from both parties introduced legislation to strengthen penalties for ADIZ
violations. Not long after that (in bureaucratic terms), the FAA proposed
to make the ADIZ permanent. I'm sure the fact that as of May 12, 2005 there
were 1,682 ADIZ violations had something to do with it, too.

Shaeffer's obviously isn't the only violation, but it is the most visible.
The only other ADIZ violation that comes close to the visibility of
Shaeffer's was Gov. Ernie Fletcher of Kentucky when his plane's transponder
wasn't working correctly. Also in relatively recent memory was the incident
where another pilot flew across the ADIZ and landed at Winchester. This one
didn't get the notoriety because the Capitol was not evacuated, but it does
reinforce the notion that we pilots can't/won't follow the rules.

--
John T
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  #4  
Old January 6th 06, 01:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default ADIZ Violation Explained in AOPA Magazine


"John T" wrote in message m...
Jose wrote:

Actually, I'm not convinced that the proposal for a permanent ADIZ is
triggered by or even supported by this incident.


I am. Soon after this incident (and directly due to it) members of Congress from both parties introduced legislation
to strengthen penalties for ADIZ violations. Not long after that (in bureaucratic terms), the FAA proposed to make
the ADIZ permanent. I'm sure the fact that as of May 12, 2005 there were 1,682 ADIZ violations had something to do
with it, too.

....snip...
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/TknoFlyer
http://pocketgear.com/products_searc...veloperid=4415
____________________




The NPRM for permanently making this airspace restricted is the FAAs way to calling the TSA or Homeland Security to the
table; when this airspace was defined, the TSA (or Homeland Security, or SS) was supposed to justify it every 60 days or
so which has never been done. This NPRM requires public hearings so they will have to try and justify it which should
prove to be interesting....


  #5  
Old January 6th 06, 03:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default ADIZ Violation Explained in AOPA Magazine

".Blueskies." wrote in message
et...
The NPRM for permanently making this airspace restricted is the FAAs way
to calling the TSA or Homeland Security to the table; when this airspace
was defined, the TSA (or Homeland Security, or SS) was supposed to justify
it every 60 days or so which has never been done. This NPRM requires
public hearings so they will have to try and justify it which should prove
to be interesting....


You are quite the optimist.

The NPRM doesn't force anyone to justify anything. It's not the FAA's "way
to calling the TSA or DHS to the table". It's their way of following the
legally required steps to implement their new rules.

If the NPRM were anything other than bureaucratic procedure, then all the
previous NPRMs for bad ideas would have resulted in those bad ideas not
being implemented. But it's not, and they didn't. Anyone who thinks that
comments to a NPRM will have any real effect on the outcome just hasn't been
paying attention to the way the FAA has handled them.

Pete


  #6  
Old January 6th 06, 05:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default ADIZ Violation Explained in AOPA Magazine

On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:08:06 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
wrote in
::

Anyone who thinks that comments to a NPRM will have
any real effect on the outcome just hasn't been
paying attention to the way the FAA has handled them.


While I don't disagree with that analysis of the record, the NPRM
procedure does require the FAA to justify their decision with reasoned
responses to the questions/objections raised during the comment
period(s). It would seem that this opens an avenue to legally
challenge that rational in an effort to modify/strike-down the
rule(s).
  #7  
Old January 6th 06, 08:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default ADIZ Violation Explained in AOPA Magazine

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
[...]
It would seem that this opens an avenue to legally
challenge that rational in an effort to modify/strike-down the
rule(s).


If that were true, why has no one contested any of the prior rule-making
changes that have similar lack of justification?

I doubt that there's any genuinely feasible way to engage a legal challenge
to the FAA's analysis. If there is, I'm all ears. We've got a ridiculous
*prohibited* area here in the Puget Sound that is just begging to be
overturned.

Pete


  #8  
Old January 14th 06, 08:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default ADIZ Violation Explained in AOPA Magazine

On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:08:06 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
wrote in
::

Anyone who thinks that comments to a NPRM will have any real effect
on the outcome just hasn't been paying attention to the way the FAA
has handled them.


Well, perhaps an NPRM _meeting_ with representatives from six federal
agencies listening to pilots will be more effective in getting a bad
idea revoked:

-------------------------------------------------------------
AOPA ePilot Volume 8, Issue 2 January 13, 2006
-------------------------------------------------------------

ADIZ DRAWS IRE FROM PILOTS DURING FIRST PUBLIC MEETING
More than 200 people on Thursday filled a conference room in
Columbia, Maryland, and almost all were there to tell federal
officials why the Washington, D.C., Air Defense Identification
Zone (ADIZ) shouldn't be made permanent. "The ADIZ should be
abolished," said Scott Proudfoot, one of the first speakers at the
public meeting. He was speaking for the air traffic controllers
union, NATCA, and added, "The ADIZ is nothing but a burden on the
users and the controllers." AOPA had pushed for public meetings,
arguing that regulators needed to hear directly from pilots
themselves about the problems caused by the ADIZ. And there are
plenty. Meanwhile, pilots didn't realize that an ADIZ clearance
wasn't the same thing as "radar identification," so that even
though they were talking to ATC, they weren't receiving traffic
advisories. William Finagin, whose company sells Aviat aircraft,
said he has lost $1 million a year in sales since the ADIZ was
imposed. Another local pilot based at Montgomery County Airpark
inside the ADIZ said an FBO there had closed because of lack of
business. "Flights to our home in Williamsburg (Virginia) are now
50 percent longer, and I spend $50 more for fuel, because of
circumnavigating the ADIZ," said Russell Madsen. The public
meeting continued through Thursday evening, with representatives
from six federal agencies listening to pilots. A second public
meeting, where AOPA President Phil Boyer will speak, is scheduled
next Wednesday in Dulles, Virginia. Nearly 20,000 people have
filed written comments, mostly in opposition to the ADIZ. If you
haven't done so, file your comments today. The deadline is
February 6. See AOPA's Member Action Center: Operation ADIZ
( http://www.aopa.org/adizalert ) for more information.
  #9  
Old January 15th 06, 02:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default ADIZ Violation Explained in AOPA Magazine

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:08:06 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
wrote in
::

Anyone who thinks that comments to a NPRM will have any real effect
on the outcome just hasn't been paying attention to the way the FAA
has handled them.


Well, perhaps an NPRM _meeting_ with representatives from six federal
agencies listening to pilots will be more effective in getting a bad
idea revoked:

-------------------------------------------------------------
AOPA ePilot Volume 8, Issue 2 January 13, 2006
-------------------------------------------------------------

ADIZ DRAWS IRE FROM PILOTS DURING FIRST PUBLIC MEETING
More than 200 people on Thursday filled a conference room in
Columbia, Maryland, and almost all were there to tell federal
officials why the Washington, D.C., Air Defense Identification
Zone (ADIZ) shouldn't be made permanent. "The ADIZ should be
abolished," said Scott Proudfoot, one of the first speakers at the
public meeting. He was speaking for the air traffic controllers
union, NATCA, and added, "The ADIZ is nothing but a burden on the
users and the controllers." AOPA had pushed for public meetings,
arguing that regulators needed to hear directly from pilots
themselves about the problems caused by the ADIZ. And there are
plenty. Meanwhile, pilots didn't realize that an ADIZ clearance
wasn't the same thing as "radar identification," so that even
though they were talking to ATC, they weren't receiving traffic
advisories. William Finagin, whose company sells Aviat aircraft,
said he has lost $1 million a year in sales since the ADIZ was
imposed. Another local pilot based at Montgomery County Airpark
inside the ADIZ said an FBO there had closed because of lack of
business. "Flights to our home in Williamsburg (Virginia) are now
50 percent longer, and I spend $50 more for fuel, because of
circumnavigating the ADIZ," said Russell Madsen. The public
meeting continued through Thursday evening, with representatives
from six federal agencies listening to pilots. A second public
meeting, where AOPA President Phil Boyer will speak, is scheduled
next Wednesday in Dulles, Virginia. Nearly 20,000 people have
filed written comments, mostly in opposition to the ADIZ. If you
haven't done so, file your comments today. The deadline is
February 6. See AOPA's Member Action Center: Operation ADIZ
( http://www.aopa.org/adizalert ) for more information.


Two important questions to ask of the Homeland Security people in
attendance:

1. Which one of you is Chicken Little?

2. Which one is Fearless Fosdick?

--
Remve "_" from email to reply to me personally.
  #10  
Old January 6th 06, 03:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default ADIZ Violation Explained in AOPA Magazine

".Blueskies." wrote in message
et

justify it which should prove to be interesting....


As Peter said, the NPRM is just the FAA dotting i's and crossing t's to make
permanent airspace changes.

As for justifying its existence, Congress mandated the FAA (not DHS, etc.)
justify it periodically. As you say, nobody has done it and, as far as I
can tell, nobody has followed through on requiring it.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
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