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Okay Steve, I didn't realize until just now that you are only talking
about enroute holds. I was applying your comments to all types of holds. Will you agree that a hold at an initial approach fix will always include and EFC time? -----Original Message----- From: Steven P. McNicoll ] Posted At: Thursday, January 05, 2006 11:49 AM Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr Conversation: Newbie holding questions Subject: Newbie holding questions "Jim Carter" wrote in message . net... I'm not understanding your comment about "not expected to hold" in the even of a radio failure without an EFC time. Are you implying that as soon as I have radio failure I should begin to execute the approach or to continue as flight planned or initially cleared? I'm real concerned that assumption could lead to at best some heated phone calls and at worst a leading story on the evening news. An EFC was not issued because ATC did not expect any delay, that is, they did not expect that an actual hold would be needed or entered. As you approach the holding fix you're a bit concerned because you have not been cleared beyond that fix. So you query ATC and receive no response. You've experienced a two-way radio communications failure. Since no EFC was received you are to leave the clearance limit upon arrival over it. |
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On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 03:45:01 GMT, Jim Carter wrote:
Okay Steve, I didn't realize until just now that you are only talking about enroute holds. I was applying your comments to all types of holds. Will you agree that a hold at an initial approach fix will always include and EFC time? I am like you Jim, seems that Steve is not very clear in what he says. Though to be honest, I always thought a hold, is a hold is a hold, if I am told to hold at ABC VOR enroute, I will be expecting an EFC to leave ABC VOR to proceed on to to my destination, paper stop or not as he describes. Are there special procedures for an enroute holds? Am I not expected to fly a racetrack pattern around the fix I am instructed to hold at? Like others said, it would be more appropriate to put a speed restriction rather then hold, but Steve insists that I won't be flying in circles when I am asked to hold. When I got my one and only reroute, I was routed to a VOR, and I didn't even think of asking for a EFC since I figured there was no delay as I was being re-routed around a MOA. With the vague way Steve writes in this newsgroup, kinda makes me nervous if I had to ever fly through his sector if he is an ATC controller. Allen |
#3
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Steve's a big boy and doesn't need me or anyone else defending him. I
find that when I finally read what he meant it is very plain. I think my problem is that I don't understand his original premise as precisely as does he. I'm sure he is very precise and accurate in-the-moment, which is really the only time he'd be giving direction anyway. So all is well in the great wild blue yonder... Regarding the enroute hold, I've only had to do them during training or check rides, or at Portland, Or in the '70s while they were down to only one runway. They were the GA and AC airport so you either flew your approaches at the 727 speeds or you got to hold enroute until you agreed to fly your approaches at 727 speeds. It was a wonderful environment in which to train students right at the end of their study for their instrument or II ticket. Ah, the good ol' days... -----Original Message----- From: A Lieberman ] Posted At: Friday, January 06, 2006 4:33 PM Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr Conversation: Newbie holding questions Subject: Newbie holding questions On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 03:45:01 GMT, Jim Carter wrote: Okay Steve, I didn't realize until just now that you are only talking about enroute holds. I was applying your comments to all types of holds. Will you agree that a hold at an initial approach fix will always include and EFC time? I am like you Jim, seems that Steve is not very clear in what he says. Though to be honest, I always thought a hold, is a hold is a hold, if I am told to hold at ABC VOR enroute, I will be expecting an EFC to leave ABC VOR to proceed on to to my destination, paper stop or not as he describes. Are there special procedures for an enroute holds? Am I not expected to fly a racetrack pattern around the fix I am instructed to hold at? Like others said, it would be more appropriate to put a speed restriction rather then hold, but Steve insists that I won't be flying in circles when I am asked to hold. When I got my one and only reroute, I was routed to a VOR, and I didn't even think of asking for a EFC since I figured there was no delay as I was being re-routed around a MOA. With the vague way Steve writes in this newsgroup, kinda makes me nervous if I had to ever fly through his sector if he is an ATC controller. Allen |
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![]() "A Lieberman" wrote in message . .. I am like you Jim, seems that Steve is not very clear in what he says. What did I say that was not very clear? Though to be honest, I always thought a hold, is a hold is a hold, if I am told to hold at ABC VOR enroute, I will be expecting an EFC to leave ABC VOR to proceed on to to my destination, paper stop or not as he describes. Are there special procedures for an enroute holds? Am I not expected to fly a racetrack pattern around the fix I am instructed to hold at? Like others said, it would be more appropriate to put a speed restriction rather then hold, but Steve insists that I won't be flying in circles when I am asked to hold. When I got my one and only reroute, I was routed to a VOR, and I didn't even think of asking for a EFC since I figured there was no delay as I was being re-routed around a MOA. With the vague way Steve writes in this newsgroup, kinda makes me nervous if I had to ever fly through his sector if he is an ATC controller. FAAO 7110.65 and FAR 91.185 specifically refer to holding instructions without an EFC and the AIM does so implicitly. Why then do some insist that holding instructions must always include an EFC? |
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On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:17:02 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"A Lieberman" wrote in message . .. I am like you Jim, seems that Steve is not very clear in what he says. What did I say that was not very clear? Answer this question. Why would I hold if there is no delay? A paper stop is a delay. I am no longer direct. Define hold. Hold is doing a racetrack pattern around a fix is what I was taught. If you tell me to hold, then I am no longer cleared beyond a fix. I am now doing circles and expect an EFC to stop spinning in circles. Are their other holding patterns I need to know about? FAAO 7110.65 Subsection please. I googled the above and it gave me visual flight rule references and FAR 91.185 specifically refer to holding instructions without an EFC and the AIM does so implicitly. Why then do some insist that holding instructions must always include an EFC? Because when there is a no delay, I expect to be flying a straight line. You tell me to hold, I better start holding per published hold instructions and flying circles. Go to http://www.vateud-td.org/references/Holding.asp TAKEN from the above website When no delay is expected, the controller should issue a clearance beyond the fix as soon as possible and, whenever possible, at least 5 minutes before the aircraft reaches the clearance limit. I don't see me flying in circles Steve with the above instructions. I am flying to a fix, you give me a new clearance limit. No teardrop, parallel or direct entry. I fly a straight line. You keep saying that I would be holding with no delay which is absolutely wrong. My IFR filing does not include MBO to JAN, to MCB hold at MCB direct to L31 does it? Not at all. I file to the fixes as appropriate. You put me in a hold, and guess what, the clearance has changed and I need an EFC. How many ways can I say, if ATC puts me in a hold, then I expect an EFC. The above seems to be a real good reference on on holding. Read toward the bottom of the page for ATC actions. Read 4F and tell me that is incorrect. And if it's incorrect, please provide a reference. Allen |
#6
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On 01/10/06 16:04, A Lieberman wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:17:02 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote: "A Lieberman" wrote in message . .. I am like you Jim, seems that Steve is not very clear in what he says. What did I say that was not very clear? Answer this question. Why would I hold if there is no delay? A paper stop is a delay. I am no longer direct. Define hold. Hold is doing a racetrack pattern around a fix is what I was taught. If you tell me to hold, then I am no longer cleared beyond a fix. I am now doing circles and expect an EFC to stop spinning in circles. Are their other holding patterns I need to know about? FAAO 7110.65 Subsection please. I googled the above and it gave me visual flight rule references and FAR 91.185 specifically refer to holding instructions without an EFC and the AIM does so implicitly. Why then do some insist that holding instructions must always include an EFC? Because when there is a no delay, I expect to be flying a straight line. You tell me to hold, I better start holding per published hold instructions and flying circles. Go to http://www.vateud-td.org/references/Holding.asp TAKEN from the above website When no delay is expected, the controller should issue a clearance beyond the fix as soon as possible and, whenever possible, at least 5 minutes before the aircraft reaches the clearance limit. I'm not Steve, but ... what if the controller does not issue the clearance beyond the current limit? If your radios are still working, you should hold, right? If your radios have failed, that's a different story. I don't see me flying in circles Steve with the above instructions. I am flying to a fix, you give me a new clearance limit. No teardrop, parallel or direct entry. I fly a straight line. You keep saying that I would be holding with no delay which is absolutely wrong. My IFR filing does not include MBO to JAN, to MCB hold at MCB direct to L31 does it? Not at all. I file to the fixes as appropriate. You put me in a hold, and guess what, the clearance has changed and I need an EFC. How many ways can I say, if ATC puts me in a hold, then I expect an EFC. The above seems to be a real good reference on on holding. Read toward the bottom of the page for ATC actions. Read 4F and tell me that is incorrect. And if it's incorrect, please provide a reference. Allen -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Sacramento, CA |
#7
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Mark Hansen wrote:
Subsection please. I googled the above and it gave me visual flight rule references 7110.65P, Paragraph 4-6-1 c |
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#9
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![]() "Mark Hansen" wrote in message ... I'm not Steve, but ... what if the controller does not issue the clearance beyond the current limit? If your radios are still working, you should hold, right? If your radios are still working you should query the controller as you near the clearance limit. |
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On 01/11/06 09:16, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message ... I'm not Steve, but ... what if the controller does not issue the clearance beyond the current limit? If your radios are still working, you should hold, right? If your radios are still working you should query the controller as you near the clearance limit. Obviously. I thought the issue was what if no update is forthcoming from ATC. For example, if the frequency is too busy. If you have a clearance limit (which is not your destination airport) and your radios are working, and you've reached the clearance limit fix, and you've been unable to get a new clearance limit from ATC, then you'd better hold. -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Sacramento, CA |
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