Newbie holding questions

On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:17:02 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
. ..

I am like you Jim, seems that Steve is not very clear in what he says.


What did I say that was not very clear?

Answer this question. Why would I hold if there is no delay? A paper stop
is a delay. I am no longer direct.

Define hold.

Hold is doing a racetrack pattern around a fix is what I was taught. If
you tell me to hold, then I am no longer cleared beyond a fix. I am now
doing circles and expect an EFC to stop spinning in circles. Are their
other holding patterns I need to know about?

FAAO 7110.65

Subsection please. I googled the above and it gave me visual flight rule
references

and FAR 91.185 specifically refer to holding instructions
without an EFC and the AIM does so implicitly. Why then do some insist that
holding instructions must always include an EFC?

Because when there is a no delay, I expect to be flying a straight line.
You tell me to hold, I better start holding per published hold instructions
and flying circles.

Go to http://www.vateud-td.org/references/Holding.asp

TAKEN from the above website
When no delay is expected, the controller should issue a clearance beyond
the fix as soon as possible and, whenever possible, at least 5 minutes
before the aircraft reaches the clearance limit.

I don't see me flying in circles Steve with the above instructions. I am
flying to a fix, you give me a new clearance limit. No teardrop, parallel
or direct entry. I fly a straight line.

You keep saying that I would be holding with no delay which is absolutely
wrong. My IFR filing does not include MBO to JAN, to MCB hold at MCB
direct to L31 does it? Not at all. I file to the fixes as appropriate.
You put me in a hold, and guess what, the clearance has changed and I need
an EFC.

How many ways can I say, if ATC puts me in a hold, then I expect an EFC.

The above seems to be a real good reference on on holding. Read toward the
bottom of the page for ATC actions. Read 4F and tell me that is incorrect.
And if it's incorrect, please provide a reference.

Allen

On 01/10/06 16:04, A Lieberman wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:17:02 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
. ..

I am like you Jim, seems that Steve is not very clear in what he says.


What did I say that was not very clear?

Answer this question. Why would I hold if there is no delay? A paper stop
is a delay. I am no longer direct.

Define hold.

Hold is doing a racetrack pattern around a fix is what I was taught. If
you tell me to hold, then I am no longer cleared beyond a fix. I am now
doing circles and expect an EFC to stop spinning in circles. Are their
other holding patterns I need to know about?

FAAO 7110.65

Subsection please. I googled the above and it gave me visual flight rule
references

and FAR 91.185 specifically refer to holding instructions
without an EFC and the AIM does so implicitly. Why then do some insist that
holding instructions must always include an EFC?

Because when there is a no delay, I expect to be flying a straight line.
You tell me to hold, I better start holding per published hold instructions
and flying circles.

Go to http://www.vateud-td.org/references/Holding.asp

TAKEN from the above website
When no delay is expected, the controller should issue a clearance beyond
the fix as soon as possible and, whenever possible, at least 5 minutes
before the aircraft reaches the clearance limit.

I'm not Steve, but ... what if the controller does not issue the clearance
beyond the current limit? If your radios are still working, you should hold, right?
If your radios have failed, that's a different story.


I don't see me flying in circles Steve with the above instructions. I am
flying to a fix, you give me a new clearance limit. No teardrop, parallel
or direct entry. I fly a straight line.

You keep saying that I would be holding with no delay which is absolutely
wrong. My IFR filing does not include MBO to JAN, to MCB hold at MCB
direct to L31 does it? Not at all. I file to the fixes as appropriate.
You put me in a hold, and guess what, the clearance has changed and I need
an EFC.

How many ways can I say, if ATC puts me in a hold, then I expect an EFC.

The above seems to be a real good reference on on holding. Read toward the
bottom of the page for ATC actions. Read 4F and tell me that is incorrect.
And if it's incorrect, please provide a reference.

Allen


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote:



Subsection please. I googled the above and it gave me visual flight rule
references


7110.65P, Paragraph 4-6-1 c

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:36:01 -0800, wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote:



Subsection please. I googled the above and it gave me visual flight rule
references


7110.65P, Paragraph 4-6-1 c

Thank you Tim,

So, from what I read, if I get from ATC, no delay, then I won't be holding
and simply proceeding on to the next fix in my route that I have been
cleared to. I won't be required to enter a holding pattern as there is no
delay.

I will keep sticking to my statement, as I have come across nothing to
contradict the fact, if I am put in a hold where I am required to fly in a
circle, enter a hold via tear drop, parallel or direct entry, there should
be an EFC issued by the air traffic controller.

Allen

A Lieberman wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:36:01 -0800, wrote:


Mark Hansen wrote:



Subsection please. I googled the above and it gave me visual flight rule
references


7110.65P, Paragraph 4-6-1 c


Thank you Tim,

So, from what I read, if I get from ATC, no delay, then I won't be holding
and simply proceeding on to the next fix in my route that I have been
cleared to. I won't be required to enter a holding pattern as there is no
delay.

I will keep sticking to my statement, as I have come across nothing to
contradict the fact, if I am put in a hold where I am required to fly in a
circle, enter a hold via tear drop, parallel or direct entry, there should
be an EFC issued by the air traffic controller.

Allen

I can think of an example in my area where LA Center uses "paper stop"
holds for handoffs to Palm Springs Approach Control because Palm Springs
can't see the arrivals on radar due to terrain until they are almost on
top of the holding fix. 90% of the time approach control pick up voice
and radar in time to cancel the hold. On occasion, things are in the
way, and the hold will then be required. Approach control at that time
will issue a formal or ad hoc EFC, such as "plan one turn in the hold."

And, so it goes. The center can't issue an EFC when it appears there
will be no delay. Yet, the paper stop is like a yellow light for a
train engineer that was red, so the engineer proceeds slowly but expects
it to turn green. Oops, it turns red and he has to start slowing down.

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...

7110.65P, Paragraph 4-6-1 c


Thank you Tim,

So, from what I read, if I get from ATC, no delay, then I won't be holding
and simply proceeding on to the next fix in my route that I have been
cleared to. I won't be required to enter a holding pattern as there is no
delay.


Right. Apparently you didn't bother to read that subparagraph when I
provided the reference a week ago.



I will keep sticking to my statement, as I have come across nothing to
contradict the fact, if I am put in a hold where I am required to fly in a
circle, enter a hold via tear drop, parallel or direct entry, there should
be an EFC issued by the air traffic controller.


Correct, and to my knowledge nobody has said anything contrary to that in
this thread.

"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...

I'm not Steve, but ... what if the controller does not issue the clearance
beyond the current limit? If your radios are still working, you should
hold, right?


If your radios are still working you should query the controller as you near
the clearance limit.

On 01/11/06 09:16, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...

I'm not Steve, but ... what if the controller does not issue the clearance
beyond the current limit? If your radios are still working, you should
hold, right?


If your radios are still working you should query the controller as you near
the clearance limit.



Obviously. I thought the issue was what if no update is forthcoming from ATC.
For example, if the frequency is too busy.

If you have a clearance limit (which is not your destination airport) and
your radios are working, and you've reached the clearance limit fix, and
you've been unable to get a new clearance limit from ATC, then you'd better
hold.

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...

Obviously. I thought the issue was what if no update is forthcoming from
ATC. For example, if the frequency is too busy.


That implies a high traffic area. You don't tend to find nonradar methods
used in high traffic areas, you tend to find radar in those areas.



If you have a clearance limit (which is not your destination airport) and
your radios are working, and you've reached the clearance limit fix, and
you've been unable to get a new clearance limit from ATC, then you'd
better hold.


Why? The controller said no delay was expected, he analyzed the traffic
situation and resolved a problem with a paper stop. He anticipated clearing
me beyond that point before I reached it. There could be traffic following
me at the same altitude. If I enter a hold where none was anticipated I
could be creating a problem where none exists.

On 01/11/06 10:22, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...

Obviously. I thought the issue was what if no update is forthcoming from
ATC. For example, if the frequency is too busy.


That implies a high traffic area. You don't tend to find nonradar methods
used in high traffic areas, you tend to find radar in those areas.



If you have a clearance limit (which is not your destination airport) and
your radios are working, and you've reached the clearance limit fix, and
you've been unable to get a new clearance limit from ATC, then you'd
better hold.


Why? The controller said no delay was expected, he analyzed the traffic
situation and resolved a problem with a paper stop. He anticipated clearing
me beyond that point before I reached it. There could be traffic following
me at the same altitude. If I enter a hold where none was anticipated I
could be creating a problem where none exists.



But unless the controller clears you beyond that fix (which in this case,
he did not) and you're not following the Radio Failure procedures (which
in this case you are not) then you must hold.

Are you suggesting that when cleared to a fix that is not the destination
airport, that you never need to hold at that fix unless ATC comes back and
specifically tells you to?



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA