Lancaster California: Another Fatal Cirrus Crash

Baloney. Have you even tried this? Let's say you have the plane
trimmed for an 85 kt climb. Now remove power. What happens? The nose
will come down as the plane attempts to maintain 85 kts, all without any
input from you. You have a lot more time than you think.

I did not try engine fail practice in Cirrus. However, every pilot
knows during initial climb out if engine fail, you have to lower the
noise IMMEDIATELY ON ANY SEL AIRCRAFT. Countless such take off crash
cases not limit to Cirrus. You can go to AOPA's Air Safety Foundation
to read on the training material about how to do during take off engine
fail. I believe while that SR-20 turned crosswind, he did not reach
800 feet AGL.... you have only seconds to choice a landing spot even
if you lower the nose correctly. I don't understand what do you mean
"a lot of time", basically, you don't have "a lot of time". That is
also proved by the witness of the crash. (from engine quit to crash
only took a few seconds).

You probably did that 85 kt well-trimmed power loss in higher altitude
(in a practice area). I don't think you did this in 500 feet AGL,
didn't you? (otherwise you won't say you will have "plenty" of time).

cpu wrote:

I did not try engine fail practice in Cirrus. However, every pilot
knows during initial climb out if engine fail, you have to lower the
noise IMMEDIATELY ON ANY SEL AIRCRAFT.

Yeah, we get told that. In fact, however, the nose will drop all by itself in
most light aircraft. If the pilot doesn't stop it from doing so. The problem is
that it takes a real effort of will on the part of the pilot to avoid applying
back pressure on the yoke in an attempt to maintain attitude. My Maule was so
sensitive to power application, that you could stall the aircraft by applying
power for a go-around.

Try it sometime.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Yeah, we get told that. In fact, however, the nose will drop all by itself in
most light aircraft. If the pilot doesn't stop it from doing so.

Your point is well taken. No question about that. From ASF's
material, a pilot will take 4 to 10 seonds to "realize" or "register"
the trouble. So there isn't really much time left. Plus the
instructor usually will take over when he "feels" the student can't
handle it. But in a less-forgiving aircraft, the instructor must be
very fast and determined, otherwise, it can cause death like this.

per George's point, one should try it in whatever one flies rather than
beleive what is written. There is no question that many people will
react incorrectly but my experience is that it's not quite the way it is
written up.

4 to 10 seconds is an eternity that will lead to eternity.... I suggest
that one knows that their (single) engine quit on takeoff immediately
and one will tend to react quickly.

The inexperienced may immediately try to hold the nose where it was -
that will stall/spin them in.

The well read but inexperienced may immediately try to dump the nose too
quickly and overshoot best glide. This will lose total energy and the
"500 foot turn and return to the airport" will be quite impossible.

Practice in a particular a/c will be a revelation to many. First, my
experience suggests that on some a/c, the nose will immediately seek
trim speed and the nose will fall. Presuming an optimal climb from
takeoff, you will probably need to slow a bit for max level glide. So a
little pull will be called for during this manuever. If a turn is
required, especially a 180, an immediate 'sharp' bank is required. The
bank needs to be well beyond a standard rate, the nose will have to be
held up to make it.

If you practice it, it is quite amazing what can be done in terms of a
return to airport from less than pattern altitude. If you don't
practice it, it is quite amazing how far short you will be - or how fast
the stall spin will develop.

If you don't practice, put the nose in a steep final approach attitude -
cross check the airspeed and fly to a landing within 20 degrees of you
heading.

The Cirrus is a pretty hot ship it seems. It's not about glass, it's
about wing loading.

cpu wrote:
Yeah, we get told that. In fact, however, the nose will drop all by itself in

most light aircraft. If the pilot doesn't stop it from doing so.

Your point is well taken. No question about that. From ASF's
material, a pilot will take 4 to 10 seonds to "realize" or "register"
the trouble. So there isn't really much time left. Plus the
instructor usually will take over when he "feels" the student can't
handle it. But in a less-forgiving aircraft, the instructor must be
very fast and determined, otherwise, it can cause death like this.

Maule Driver wrote:

First, my
experience suggests that on some a/c, the nose will immediately seek
trim speed and the nose will fall.

What aircraft does not seek its trimmed airspeed?

None that I know of. I just didn't want to argue the point.

But now that you brought it up, do *all* a/c seek the same rim speed if
the engine quits versus full climb power? I assume so but honestly
don't know for sure (e.g. does a T-tail respond a bit differently than a
'convential' tail)

Newps wrote:

Maule Driver wrote:
my experience suggests that on some a/c, the nose will immediately seek
trim speed and the nose will fall.

What aircraft does not seek its trimmed airspeed?

The airplane will pitch to its trimmed speed. Always. How can it not?

Maule Driver wrote:
None that I know of. I just didn't want to argue the point.

But now that you brought it up, do *all* a/c seek the same rim speed if
the engine quits versus full climb power? I assume so but honestly
don't know for sure (e.g. does a T-tail respond a bit differently than a
'convential' tail)

Newps wrote:

Maule Driver wrote:

my experience suggests that on some a/c, the nose will immediately
seek trim speed and the nose will fall.


What aircraft does not seek its trimmed airspeed?

"Maule Driver" wrote

The Cirrus is a pretty hot ship it seems. It's not about glass, it's
about wing loading.


AND the lack of drag to slow it down, once it is pointed back down, IMHO.
--
Jim in NC

cpu wrote:




I did not try engine fail practice in Cirrus. However, every pilot
knows during initial climb out if engine fail, you have to lower the
noise IMMEDIATELY ON ANY SEL AIRCRAFT.

Again, baloney. The plane will stay at the trimmed airspeed until it
hits the ground. You may want to push the nose over to hit a certain
spot but it is not necessary to keep the plane in the air.


Countless such take off crash
cases not limit to Cirrus. You can go to AOPA's Air Safety Foundation
to read on the training material about how to do during take off engine
fail. I believe while that SR-20 turned crosswind, he did not reach
800 feet AGL.... you have only seconds to choice a landing spot even
if you lower the nose correctly.

From 800 feet??? I thought you were talking close to the ground. When
I had my 182 I needed 450 feet to return to the runway I took off from,
landing opposite direction. From 800 feet I will make a pattern of it
and land the same way I took off.


I don't understand what do you mean
"a lot of time", basically, you don't have "a lot of time".

That of course is a relative term but from 800 feet you will have over a
minute before you hit the ground.


That is
also proved by the witness of the crash. (from engine quit to crash
only took a few seconds).

The only way to hit the ground within a few seconds from 800 feet is to
roll the plane over and aim it straight at the ground.



You probably did that 85 kt well-trimmed power loss in higher altitude
(in a practice area). I don't think you did this in 500 feet AGL,
didn't you? (otherwise you won't say you will have "plenty" of time).

The amount of time it takes to go from 800 AGL to 0 AGL is the same as
from 2000 AGL to 1200 AGL.

Newps wrote:
cpu wrote:
I did not try engine fail practice in Cirrus. However, every pilot
knows during initial climb out if engine fail, you have to lower the
noise IMMEDIATELY ON ANY SEL AIRCRAFT.

Again, baloney. The plane will stay at the trimmed airspeed until it
hits the ground. You may want to push the nose over to hit a certain
spot but it is not necessary to keep the plane in the air.

Well, it will seek it's trim speed but hands-off, most if not all
aircraft will overshoot it a bit before finding it in the case of sudden
power loss. But agree with the point less stridently taken.