Lancaster California: Another Fatal Cirrus Crash

"Newps" wrote

From 800 feet??? I thought you were talking close to the ground. When I
had my 182 I needed 450 feet to return to the runway I took off from,
landing opposite direction. From 800 feet I will make a pattern of it and
land the same way I took off.


That sounds suspect as an over generalization, to me. A 152 will take a lot
more time to descend that same altidude, vs a 182, or a sr-22, right?

That of course is a relative term but from 800 feet you will have over a
minute before you hit the ground.

Two minutes with a 152, then?

The time to get your head wrapped around the situation would seem, to me, to
be an important factor. It should be enough for both cases, but how much
lower is still enough, for the 152 brain in a sr-22?
--
Jim in NC

"Montblack" wrote

I thought a Cirrus demo pilot died in a Cirrus a year or two ago. Not the
test pilot in '99, but a factory designated demo safety pilot rep -
whatever they're called.

Wasn't that a gross mechanical failure, or something like that, or am I
thinking of something else, "again."

Damn, I hate CRS!
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:


"Newps" wrote

The airplane will pitch to its trimmed speed. Always. How can it not?


But how quickly will it do so? Will some designs do so, more rapidly
than others?

Not arguing, just asking.

The only experience I have is with the 182 I had and my current Bonanza.
Both will stay at whatever speed it is trimmed for, no hunting around.
I would imagine the 172 is the same and I know the Debonair is the
same because, well, it's the same plane.

Morgans wrote:


"Newps" wrote


From 800 feet??? I thought you were talking close to the ground.
When I had my 182 I needed 450 feet to return to the runway I took off
from, landing opposite direction. From 800 feet I will make a pattern
of it and land the same way I took off.



That sounds suspect as an over generalization, to me. A 152 will take a
lot more time to descend that same altidude, vs a 182, or a sr-22, right?

I have never flown a 152 so I don't know exactly how it flies. However
it is a strutted Cessna so I would fly it the same as the 182. The
poster stated that they were turning downwind at 800 feet. Worst case
there being no wind I would continue on downwind until one of two things
happens. I get to 300 AGL or I get to the approach end of the runway.
Never go past the approach end of the runway before turning base. Once
turning base it is a constant bank turn at 80 mph IAS. Roll out over
the runway and land. I do this nearly every time at my home airport
because I use the small runway and there is rarely traffic. Half flaps
at midfield when the runway is made and full flaps on base.



That of course is a relative term but from 800 feet you will have over
a minute before you hit the ground.


Two minutes with a 152, then?

I don't know, what is the fpm descent that you would get in a 152? In
the 182 it was about 500-600 at 80 mph.

I had my 182 I needed 450 feet to

I thought we are talking abour SR20. I flew a lot of 182RG...but it is
not a SR20. You are right on 182 but the one crashed is not your 182.


From many test report, SR20 is even worse than SR22 on the aloaf. Our
CSI (Cirrus Standardized Instructor) experienced several wing drop
events during stall practices in a Cirrus during past few years. This
plane is not as stable as your 182 at very low speed.

Like many other posts, we have to respect each type and model that has
their own charecterestic and envolope. Yeh, 182 and many other planes
including gliders can adjust its own pitch to adapt power
change...quickly and in almost all kind of pitch and power
combinations. But it may not be the case for some other airplanes (in
certain pitch and power combination). One example I can make is that a
short-wing aerobatic aircraft such as Sukhoi 26 in a high-pitch
low-speed climb out and then pull the power off, what will happend?
Yeh the nose will drop dramatically, but will it remain stable without
any control input? will it remaining its climb out speed when it start
to dive? (again, no control input is allowed in your case). I don't
think so.

So, if you don't lower the nose immediately the plane will
*automatically* stall and spin? I doubt it,

No, of course not. But you beter do somthing to keep the plane in its
design envolope.
SR20 is not as stable as SR22 as many people reported.

it's generally unfamiliarity with the plane aggravated by
low-time/inexperienced pilots that's been the root of most of these
accidents. With such little drag the plane shoud glide quite well
although at a higher speed than other GA singles.

Yeh, like there is the other guy keep preaching his 182 experience for
a Cirrus. Some reports says a pilot get his master training
completely in a Cirrus will have lower risk than a pilot move up to a
Cirrus. I truely believe that.

"cpu" wrote in message
oups.com...
I had my 182 I needed 450 feet to

I thought we are talking abour SR20. I flew a lot of 182RG...but it is
not a SR20. You are right on 182 but the one crashed is not your 182.


From many test report, SR20 is even worse than SR22 on the aloaf. Our
CSI (Cirrus Standardized Instructor) experienced several wing drop
events during stall practices in a Cirrus during past few years. This
plane is not as stable as your 182 at very low speed.

Like many other posts, we have to respect each type and model that has
their own charecterestic and envolope. Yeh, 182 and many other planes
including gliders can adjust its own pitch to adapt power
change...quickly and in almost all kind of pitch and power
combinations. But it may not be the case for some other airplanes (in
certain pitch and power combination). One example I can make is that a
short-wing aerobatic aircraft such as Sukhoi 26 in a high-pitch
low-speed climb out and then pull the power off, what will happend?
Yeh the nose will drop dramatically, but will it remain stable without
any control input? will it remaining its climb out speed when it start
to dive? (again, no control input is allowed in your case). I don't
think so.



Assuming you have the S-26 trimmed for a given speed when the power is
pulled at some point it will stabilize at the speed it was trimed for. There
is one exception to this rule. The ground must not get in the way first.
Should that happen all aircraft have an auto-trim function.

Assuming you have the S-26 trimmed for a given speed when the power is
pulled at some point it will stabilize at the ....

Well, your comment is correct only when the diving S-26 stability is in
the envelope. If its current stability is out of the envelope, it may
never reach its former trimed speed (or stable state). If you've
readed the basic air dynamic in the ATP or commercial exam materials,
you know there are 2 basic stabilities of an aircraft...dynamic and
static stability. These 2 factors (and others) determine the
performance envelope of an aircraft. If the air dynamic is that
simple, all my friends in JPL and Boeing will be out of jobs by now.

Why the most popular aircraft such as 182 (epscially most high-wings)
will fall to its trim speed when power is lost because its stability
envelope is large. So when power factor changed, in most of cases, its
static stability will let the aircraft fall back into its balance
state. Not all the aircrafts like this, you can proove it by common
sense. (think about other types and models, jets, B2 bumber...etc.)

More information:

Peter Lopez was kind enough to send me this link:
http://www.avpress.com/n/12/0112_s6.hts#thetop#thetop

Shortly before the accident, the pilot radioed the tower
requesting permission to simulate an emergency situation in which
the engine stops shortly after takeoff and the pilot must make an
emergency landing. In this simulation, the pilot cuts back on the
engine power, similar to a driver taking his foot of the gas
pedal, but the engine does not stop completely, Jones said.

The aircraft made a low approach to the airport but did not touch
down on the runway, then proceeded with the simulation, Jones
said.

The first attempt was apparently successful, and the pilot
requested permission for a second attempt.

It was in making the second attempt that the accident occurred, he
said.

The airplane crashed about two miles from the airfield, at 40th
Street West and Avenue F.