"Going for the Visual"

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message link.net...
"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...

Had you reported a preceding aircraft in sight that had been cleared for a
visual approach?

Nope. No one else going in to that non-towered airport IFR.
Typical exchange would go something like
"XX Center, Grumman 123 requests slow descent into Podunk"
"Grumman 123, descend and maintain three thousand."
(3000 will lose radar coverage and radio contact will be
iffy)
(around 3500 ft)
"Grumman 123, radar contact lost, you are cleared for the
visual approach into Podunk, no observed traffic between
you and the airport, change to advisory approved, report
cancellation with Flight Service"

FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control
Chapter 7. Visual
2. The airport in sight at airports without a control tower.

That looks pretty unambiguous.

My guess is what I've run into is someone who knows if he
waits to clear me until I report the airport in sight, the
chances that he'll have lost both radar contact and comms
with me are pretty high, and has decided to simplify his
life.

Cheers,
Sydney





b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other aircraft, advise an
overtaking aircraft of the distance to the preceding aircraft and speed
difference, and ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or
that the pilot has been informed that weather is not available for the
destination airport. Upon pilot request, advise the pilot of the frequency
to receive weather information where AWOS/ASOS is available.

PHRASEOLOGY-
(Ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH RUNWAY (number);

or

(ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH TO (airport name)

(and if appropriate)

WEATHER NOT AVAILABLE OR VERIFY THAT YOU HAVE THE (airport) WEATHER.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Visual Separation, Para 7-2-1.

c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when:

1. The aircraft is number one in the approach sequence, or

2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft and the pilot reports
the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to follow it, or

NOTE-
The pilot need not report the airport/runway in sight.

3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight but not the
preceding aircraft. Radar separation must be maintained until visual
separation is provided.

d. All aircraft following a heavy jet/B757 must be informed of the
airplane manufacturer and model.

EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Three Four Juliet, following a Boeing 757, 12 o'clock, six miles."

e. Inform the tower of the aircraft's position prior to communications
transfer at controlled airports. ARTS/STARS functions may be used provided a
facility directive or LOA specifies control and communication transfer
points.

f. In addition to the requirements of para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual
Approach, and subparas a, b, c, d, and e, ensure that the location of the
destination airport is provided when the pilot is asked to report the
destination airport in sight.

g. In those instances where airports are located in close proximity, also
provide the location of the airport that may cause the confusion.

EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Five Six November, Cleveland Burke Lakefront Airport is at
12 o'clock, 5 miles. Cleveland Hopkins Airport is at 1 o'clock 12 miles.
Report Cleveland Hopkins in sight."

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Approaches to Multiple Runways, Para 7-4-4.

(Snowbird) wrote
My guess is what I've run into is someone who knows if he
waits to clear me until I report the airport in sight, the
chances that he'll have lost both radar contact and comms
with me are pretty high, and has decided to simplify his
life.

That sounds realistic. On the other hand, the controller has an
option that is just as simple and not contrary to regulation. The
option is a cruise clearance. That allows you to shoot any approach,
which presumably includes the visual and preserves the option of
shooting a SIAP if you don't get the airport in sight, or the contact
if the vis isn't quite good enough for the visual.

Michael

(Michael) wrote:
That sounds realistic. On the other hand, the controller has an
option that is just as simple and not contrary to regulation. The
option is a cruise clearance. That allows you to shoot any approach,
which presumably includes the visual and preserves the option of
shooting a SIAP if you don't get the airport in sight, or the contact
if the vis isn't quite good enough for the visual.

As somebody who flies mostly in the New York area, I've never gotten a
cruise clearance in my life, so I'm not really up on the details. What
happens if I get "Cleared to the White Plains airport, via direct,
cruise 3000, frequency change approved, have a nice night"? For the
moment, let's assume it's 2:00 AM and the tower is closed.

I plug HPN into my GPS, climb to 3000, and keep turning the little
airplane icon until the track and bearing say the same number. Then
what?

I need 1000 and 3 to fly a visual. 30 miles out, I tune in the ATIS and
hear that the weather is 2500 & 10. I'm currently in IMC. When do I
begin my descent out of 3000 for the visual? I'm guessing I can't and
must shoot an instrument approach?

OK, I decided to shoot the GPS-34
(http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../HPN_agr34.pdf).
At what point do I stop going direct HPN and start heading to TUGME (the
IAF)? And when do I begin my descent out of 3000? I'm guessing only
once I pass TUGME, so let's assume that for the moment.

So, I start on down from TUGME, and quickly break out right at 2500 and
see the airport. Can I then change my mind about flying the GPS-34 and
switch to the visual? I'm guessing I can, so I make a right turn,
heading 000, to get lined up for a straight-in to 29 (my preferred
runway since it puts me closest to my parking spot).

Halfway to the airport, I discover I made a poor choice in breaking off
the GPS approach because suddenly I find myself in a rain shower and
quickly after that, back in IMC at 2000. I'm not worried about terrain
in the immediate vicinity because I know I'm above anything close, but I
figure a climb back to the MSA makes sense anyway, so I do that. Now
what? If I decide to climb to 3000 and head back to TUGME for another
GPS approach, am I still operating within my cruise clearance?

I guess the gist of my question is, does the cruise clearance let me fly
a single approach, or does it let me stooge around in the vicinity of
the airport trying multiple approaches until I get in or give up?

Roy Smith wrote in news:roy-
:

As somebody who flies mostly in the New York area, I've never gotten a
cruise clearance in my life, so I'm not really up on the details. What
happens if I get "Cleared to the White Plains airport, via direct,
cruise 3000, frequency change approved, have a nice night"? For the
moment, let's assume it's 2:00 AM and the tower is closed.

As somebody who flies mostly in the Gulf of Mexico, with spotty radar and
communications coverage, I get them all the time, pretty much every IFR
flight offshore. Center knows we can't talk below 2000' or so, and radar
coverage will also be lost. A cruise clearance gives you all the airspace
at and below the cruise altitude until you report out of it. If you report
leaving an altitude, you can't climb back up to it, but until you report
leaving it (if you do report it) you can go up and down all you like. The
cruise clearance includes the instrument approach of your choice, and a
missed approach clearance if you miss. We have a standard missed in a
letter of agreement, as well as lost comm instructions. The airspace
around your destination is yours until you cancel IFR or report a missed
approach.

You can descend to whatever altitude you like, down to the MEA, and to the
published altitude for any transitions you fly. A direct clearance can
make things difficult, because of terrain clearances. You can fly direct
to the airport, an IAF, or whatever, because ATC must protect all the
airspace, because the cruise clearance is a clearance for any approach.
That's why you don't get them very often up there. I'm not familiar with
the airspace, so I can't comment on the routing you postulated, but in
reality you can do whatever you like, as long as you can maintain a safe
altitude. I would likely set myself up for the most direct published
approach, and fly that, unless I broke out and had the airport in sight.
You can fly the visual at any time you have the airport in sight. A cruise
clearance is a wonderful thing, if you can get it, because it lets you do
pretty much whatever you like.

I guess the gist of my question is, does the cruise clearance let me fly
a single approach, or does it let me stooge around in the vicinity of
the airport trying multiple approaches until I get in or give up?

My understanding is that you can stooge around if you need to, but good
planning should obviate a lot of stooging. Judgement is always necessary,
especially when flying IFR.

--
Regards,

Stan

Roy Smith wrote:


As somebody who flies mostly in the New York area, I've never gotten a
cruise clearance in my life,

And you won't in that airspace.


so I'm not really up on the details. What
happens if I get "Cleared to the White Plains airport, via direct,
cruise 3000, frequency change approved, have a nice night"? For the
moment, let's assume it's 2:00 AM and the tower is closed.

You go to White Plains, staying between the MEA and 3000 until you see
the airport or get to a fix on an approach, shoot the approach and
cancel like at any nontowered airport.



I need 1000 and 3 to fly a visual. 30 miles out, I tune in the ATIS and
hear that the weather is 2500 & 10. I'm currently in IMC. When do I
begin my descent out of 3000 for the visual? I'm guessing I can't and
must shoot an instrument approach?

Yes.



OK, I decided to shoot the GPS-34
(http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../HPN_agr34.pdf).
At what point do I stop going direct HPN and start heading to TUGME (the
IAF)?

Whenever you want.


And when do I begin my descent out of 3000?

When you are established on the approach as per the plate.



So, I start on down from TUGME, and quickly break out right at 2500 and
see the airport. Can I then change my mind about flying the GPS-34 and
switch to the visual?

Yes.


I'm guessing I can, so I make a right turn,
heading 000, to get lined up for a straight-in to 29 (my preferred
runway since it puts me closest to my parking spot).

Halfway to the airport, I discover I made a poor choice in breaking off
the GPS approach because suddenly I find myself in a rain shower and
quickly after that, back in IMC at 2000. I'm not worried about terrain
in the immediate vicinity because I know I'm above anything close, but I
figure a climb back to the MSA makes sense anyway, so I do that. Now
what?

Pick another approach and do it.


If I decide to climb to 3000 and head back to TUGME for another
GPS approach, am I still operating within my cruise clearance?

Yes.



I guess the gist of my question is, does the cruise clearance let me fly
a single approach, or does it let me stooge around in the vicinity of
the airport trying multiple approaches until I get in or give up?

You can do whatever you want until you land or give up.

Roy Smith wrote
What
happens if I get "Cleared to the White Plains airport, via direct,
cruise 3000, frequency change approved, have a nice night"? For the
moment, let's assume it's 2:00 AM and the tower is closed.

Well, I doubt you would ever get that at HPN (even at night, the area
is pretty busy) but something like that has been known to happen at
Huntsville (UTS) where 2200 is a perfectly valid IFR altitude but
RADAR coverage below about 4000 just won't happen. I like to take
students there (assuming their airplanes are fast enough to make the
trip worthwhile) when we have a stratus layer, just so they can get
that "You are on your own" feeling, and understand what it's like to
do the full approach (and maybe the full missed approach) without
being able to talk to anyone.

Anyway, my point is that I know what it's like to be cut loose 30
miles from the airport, even if I never have heard the magic word
(cruise) because out here it is done. If you pull up the VOR-DME A
approach for UTS (http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../UTS_vd_gA.pdf)
you will note that it has 3 IAF's. Out there, you don't normally get
a clearance to one of them - you get a clearance for the approach.
Right away that should trip an alarm - the exact route is undefined!
What this means in practice is this - the controller doesn't care.
He's perfectly happy to block out a huge chunk of airspace for you,
because nobody else wants it.

I need 1000 and 3 to fly a visual. 30 miles out, I tune in the ATIS and
hear that the weather is 2500 & 10. I'm currently in IMC. When do I
begin my descent out of 3000 for the visual? I'm guessing I can't and
must shoot an instrument approach?

Why not? Your clearance is good for any altitude between 3000 and the
minimum applicable IFR altitude. As long as you can assure that you
will comply with 91.177, you may descend at your discretion. If
you're on a random route, all you need is 1000 ft above obstacles
within 4 nm (since the terrain is not mountainous). If you're on an
airway, HPN is well within 22nm of CMK, and the MOCA's are all lower
than 3000. That's the whole point of a cruise clearance - you own
everything from 3000 on down.

OK, I decided to shoot the GPS-34
(http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../HPN_agr34.pdf).
At what point do I stop going direct HPN and start heading to TUGME (the
IAF)?

At any point. You are the only guy around. Nobody else is using the
airspace, or you would never have gotten that clearance. Just make
sure that you can comply with 91.177 on your random route without
exceeding 3000.

And when do I begin my descent out of 3000? I'm guessing only
once I pass TUGME, so let's assume that for the moment.

Well, see above. Maybe yes, maybe no.

So, I start on down from TUGME, and quickly break out right at 2500 and
see the airport. Can I then change my mind about flying the GPS-34 and
switch to the visual? I'm guessing I can, so I make a right turn,
heading 000, to get lined up for a straight-in to 29 (my preferred
runway since it puts me closest to my parking spot).

Sounds good to me so far.

Halfway to the airport, I discover I made a poor choice in breaking off
the GPS approach because suddenly I find myself in a rain shower and
quickly after that, back in IMC at 2000. I'm not worried about terrain
in the immediate vicinity because I know I'm above anything close, but I
figure a climb back to the MSA makes sense anyway, so I do that.

No problem. MSA is 3000 and your clearance is to cruise 3000. Since
you never reported vacating 3000, it's still yours.

Now
what? If I decide to climb to 3000 and head back to TUGME for another
GPS approach, am I still operating within my cruise clearance?

Well, since you have yet to complete an approach, I can't see why not.

I guess the gist of my question is, does the cruise clearance let me fly
a single approach, or does it let me stooge around in the vicinity of
the airport trying multiple approaches until I get in or give up?

I would think the latter. Remember, you got that clearance because
you're the only idiot flying around there. You were given a big block
of airspace, and you own it until you either cancel IFR or report that
you can't get in and need to do something else.

Michael

(Michael) wrote in message . com...
(Snowbird) wrote
My guess is what I've run into is someone who knows if he
waits to clear me until I report the airport in sight, the
chances that he'll have lost both radar contact and comms
with me are pretty high, and has decided to simplify his
life.

That sounds realistic. On the other hand, the controller has an
option that is just as simple and not contrary to regulation. The
option is a cruise clearance. That allows you to shoot any approach,
which presumably includes the visual and preserves the option of
shooting a SIAP if you don't get the airport in sight, or the contact
if the vis isn't quite good enough for the visual.

Well, there isn't an SIAP and IIRC one can't fly a contact approach
to an airport without an SIAP.

But otherwise, I think you've got a great point. A cruise clearance
would accomplish exactly what we both want, and be perfectly legal.

Cheers,
Sydney

(Snowbird) wrote
Well, there isn't an SIAP and IIRC one can't fly a contact approach
to an airport without an SIAP.

You recall correctly. The visual is the only choice here.

But otherwise, I think you've got a great point. A cruise clearance
would accomplish exactly what we both want, and be perfectly legal.

OK, now ask yourself why you weren't issued a cruise clearance, when
that's the legal way of accomplishing what you both want. Some
suggested answers:

(a) The controller is ornery and likes breaking the rules
(b) The controller doesn't care about rules and can't be bothered to
do anything differently.
(c) The controller doesn't believe in cruise clearances
(d) The controller doesn't know about cruise clearances

Which do YOU think is correct?

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
om...

OK, now ask yourself why you weren't issued a cruise clearance, when
that's the legal way of accomplishing what you both want. Some
suggested answers:

(a) The controller is ornery and likes breaking the rules
(b) The controller doesn't care about rules and can't be bothered to
do anything differently.
(c) The controller doesn't believe in cruise clearances
(d) The controller doesn't know about cruise clearances

Which do YOU think is correct?


d

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
(Snowbird) wrote
Well, there isn't an SIAP and IIRC one can't fly a contact approach
to an airport without an SIAP.

You recall correctly. The visual is the only choice here.

But otherwise, I think you've got a great point. A cruise clearance
would accomplish exactly what we both want, and be perfectly legal.

OK, now ask yourself why you weren't issued a cruise clearance, when
that's the legal way of accomplishing what you both want. Some
suggested answers:

(a) The controller is ornery and likes breaking the rules
(b) The controller doesn't care about rules and can't be bothered to
do anything differently.
(c) The controller doesn't believe in cruise clearances
(d) The controller doesn't know about cruise clearances

Which do YOU think is correct?


I say "d" with a twist: The controller knows there is something in the book
about a cruise clearance, but doesn't know how a cruise clearance works.
This seems most likely to me, since the controller also doesn't know how a
visual approach works either...

Chip, ZTL